The Red Sox Thread (cont'd, part 2)

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by splanky

I think you outta chill No reason to say someone doesn't know what they're talking about - it's just a difference of opinion and no reason to get uppity! What JRS was arguing is that they right now are equivalent question marks, not that they have the same ceiling or whatever.

And by your stat analysis of what is pathetic ERA and appalling WHIP, before his last start, Lester had a MLB WHIP over 2.00 and an ERA over 6. Yes, what I'm getting at is sample size - those #s mean nothing because you don't know what you're getting - it was just one game after all. A year from now, sure Lester might be great, and sure he might be great this year, but right now he IS a question mark.

My point ws that although Lester may be a question mark, putting him on PAR with Chacon is ridiculous. Chacon is NOT a question mark. He is what he is--a terrible pitcher. Lester was outstanding in his last start and not so good in his first one. He showed a vast improvement in just 1 start. Could e faulter??? Of course he could..but his Upside FAR surpasses that of a back-end guy like Chacon.

[splanky]

Originally Posted by Lucen

In the AL East, I think the Sox staff is disappointing, but not weak when stacked up against its competition. Of course, the Jays are in a good position to get substantially better very quickly, and the Yanks may do so too at some point if Pavano comes back effectively... but I think both the Sox and the Yanks need to be looking to make some kind of pitching move. And that's unfortunate, given then market.

Well put. I hoped for more, but if you look at it objectively, everyone has question marks and the RS staff is not weak. It's not great, but it's definitely not weak either.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

My point ws that although Lester may be a question mark, putting him on PAR with Chacon is ridiculous. Chacon is NOT a question mark. He is what he is--a terrible pitcher. Lester was outstanding in his last start and not so good in his first one. He showed a vast improvement in just 1 start. Could e faulter??? Of course he could..but his Upside FAR surpasses that of a back-end guy like Chacon.

Chacon is terrible? His Era last year was in the 3.5 range,(mid 2s I think once he got traded to the Yankees, obviously you cant expect that from him) as was his ERA this year before the injury. Looking at his Coors stats is deceiving. Id place him as a decent-solid number 4 pitcher, which is what I think you will get from Lester this season.

[VerMonsteR]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

My point ws that although Lester may be a question mark, putting him on PAR with Chacon is ridiculous. Chacon is NOT a question mark. He is what he is--a terrible pitcher. Lester was outstanding in his last start and not so good in his first one. He showed a vast improvement in just 1 start. Could e faulter??? Of course he could..but his Upside FAR surpasses that of a back-end guy like Chacon.

That's really not fair...he wasn't comparing Chacon to Lester...he was simply illustrating that both teams rotations, AS CURRENTLY CONFIGURED TODAY, bear some similarity. Even if Lester turns out to be Pedro Martinez...he's not Pedro yet.

[IrishBronx]

Chacon only had 3 good starts all year. Unless you consider his 5 BB, 4.2 IP against Boston a "good" start. He had 3 good starts(3 official QS's) out of 10 starts.. That is 30%. That is Terrible... End of story..

And now you are referencing last year? I am talking about this year. What is Shawn Chacon bringing to the Table this year? Get back to me in about a month once Lester has settled in.

[splanky]

I agree with you that the two should not be put on par with each other, but I also can see where someone can say that Lester is a question mark and that the production we get out of him is questionable. Or, I guess more importantly, I wish if you disagree with someone that you wouldn't get personal --- it may just be a difference in terms or the way you look at stuff.

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

My point ws that although Lester may be a question mark, putting him on PAR with Chacon is ridiculous. Chacon is NOT a question mark. He is what he is--a terrible pitcher. Lester was outstanding in his last start and not so good in his first one. He showed a vast improvement in just 1 start. Could e faulter??? Of course he could..but his Upside FAR surpasses that of a back-end guy like Chacon.

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by JeterRodriguezSheff

Chacon is terrible? His Era last year was in the 3.5 range,(mid 2s I think once he got traded to the Yankees, obviously you cant expect that from him) as was his ERA this year before the injury. Looking at his Coors stats is deceiving. Id place him as a decent-solid number 4 pitcher, which is what I think you will get from Lester this season.

Solid #4? with a 5.89 ERA and 1.79 WHIP? I guess we have vastly different ideas of just what "constitutes" solid. I would expect at least 45-50% QS's from a "Solid" #4 pitcher. I would say Chacon is a decent #5 right now.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

Chacon only had 3 good starts all year. Unless you consider his 5 BB, 4.2 IP against Boston a "good" start. He had 3 good starts(3 official QS's) out of 10 starts.. That is 30%. That is Terrible... End of story..

He only gave up 1 run which is what matters. He started off the season bad like a lot of pitchers do and then started to figure it out and then got injured. He was good last year.

[VerMonsteR]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

Chacon only had 3 good starts all year. Unless you consider his 5 BB, 4.2 IP against Boston a "good" start. He had 3 good starts(3 official QS's) out of 10 starts.. That is 30%. That is Terrible... End of story..

And now you are referencing last year? I am talking about this year. what is Shawn Chacon bringing to the Table this year? Get back to me in about a month once Lester has settled in.

Geez I do hope you're right about Lester but you got some pair of stones talkin' like that. If Cash was feeling generous and offered to lend us Chacon for the back of our rotation, I don't think Theo would be turning him down.

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by splanky

I agree with you that the two should not be put on par with each other, but I also can see where someone can say that Lester is a question mark and that the production we get out of him is questionable. Or, I guess more importantly, I wish if you disagree with someone that you wouldn't get personal --- it may just be a difference in terms or the way you look at stuff.

I didn't mean anything by it... he told me to "shove-it" which I feel is FAR more abrasive than anything I said. When I am arguing about baseball, nothing is personal on my side...

[Lucen]

I'm hearing that the Red Sox DFA'd J.T. Snow today. Haven't found a link, but I'll update as soon as I find one. Unless someone beats me to the punch.

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by VerMonsteR

Geez I do hope you're right about Lester but you got some pair of stones talkin' like that. If Cash was feeling generous and offered to lend us Chacon for the back of our rotation, I don't think Theo would be turning him down.

Theo would only take Chacon as a #5.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

Solid #4? with a 5.89 ERA and 1.79 WHIP? I guess we have vastly different ideas of just what "constitutes" solid. I would expect at least 45-50% QS's from a "Solid" #4 pitcher. I would say Chacon is a decent #5 right now.

Its like talking to a brick wall. The majority of those numbers are being skewed by one game where he was pitching hurt. Before that game his era was in the mid 3's. His first start back wasnt bad besides but he lacked stamina, like most pitchers do when they return from injury. His second start back wasnt good but you have to give pitchers some time when they come back from injury.

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by JeterRodriguezSheff

He only gave up 1 run which is what matters. He started off the season bad like a lot of pitchers do and then started to figure it out and then got injured. He was good last year.

The bottom line is this.. He has toed the rubber 10 times as a starter this year and has only given the Yanks 3 QS's. That is pathetic, any way you look at it.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

I didn't mean anything by it... he told me to "shove-it" which I feel is FAR more abrasive than anything I said. When I am arguing about baseball, nothing is personal on my side...

Lets be honest here, I told you to shove it after your rude comments. Dont complain about me not being the nicest guy when you ignite the fire.

[gold23]

Originally Posted by NDBoston

I've seen enough of AGon's defense to say he needs to make room in his trophy case at the end of the year.

It's not even close. I can't think of another SS that should give him a run.

[IrishBronx]

Originally Posted by JeterRodriguezSheff

Its like talking to a brick wall. The majority of those numbers are being skewed by one game where he was pitching hurt. Before that game his era was in the mid 3's. His first start back wasnt bad besides but he lacked stamina, like most pitchers do when they return from injury. His second start back wasnt good but you have to give pitchers some time when they come back from injury.

I am not talking about his ERA. I am talking about Quality Starts. Do you know what this stat means? You are continually ignoring it, so I will tell you. It means a pitcher goes 6 innings while allowing 3 runs or less. Chacon has done this 3 out of 10 times this year. Do you think 30% is good? Is it even decent? No, it is not. ERA's can be skewed...QS's cannot.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

The bottom line is this.. He has toed the rubber 10 times as a starter this year and has only given the Yanks 3 QS's. That is pathetic, any way you look at it.

We are looking at how he will perform for the rest of the season, and when you look at that you have to consider outside factors like injuries which you refuse to do.

[wwjdd]

Originally Posted by JeterRodriguezSheff

Lester just got called up this year one good start one bad start, Beckett has been pretty bad this far and has come from the National League. Wakefield is a knuckballer who will get knocked around a few times but overall is a good middle of the rotation starter. Schilling has been doing good. Yes I would consider the Sox rotation weak at this point.

I don't disagree with you main point - but Lester's first start wasn't really that bad. 3 ER in 5 innings after a 6 hour rain delay in his ML debut.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Originally Posted by IrishBronx

I am not talking about his ERA. I am talking about Quality Starts. Do you know what this stat means? You are continually ignoring it, so I will tell you. It means a pitcher goes 6 innings while allowing 3 runs or less. Chacon has done this 3 out of 10 times this year. Do you think 30% is good? Is it even decent? No, it is not. ERA's can be skewed...QS's cannot.

I know what it means, Jeff Weaver led the majors in QS(or was close to the top for a while) last year, I believe. However you arent looking at the whole picture and considering outside factors. Yes he started off the season poorly. I admit that, however when he started to turn it around he was injured. When looking at how he will perform for the rest of this year provided he can stay healthy I will look at last year too and also consider injuries and other factors that effected him in the past and this season so far. I havent even said he will be good, although I do think he will be a solid number 4 starter from July on. All I said is that you dont know what you are getting from either pitcher.

Bottom Line: We have to agree to disagree here.