Lofton, Aramis to Cubs

[PinstripePride]

Cubs get Lofton and Aramis Ramirez, and Pitt gets Jose "Strikeout" Hernandez and prospects. It's all over the Pirates, Cubs and Astro's message boards. No links yet other than to those posts.

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/messa...=10940.1&ctx=0

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/messa...=48716.1&ctx=0

[Looie #19]

Bucs got Matt Bruback and a PTBNL also.

[Spiker]

The poor, poor dumb Pirates. At least they got fair value for Sauerbeck, because they sure didn't get it here.

[Looie #19]

I've heard rumors that the PTBNL might be Bobby Brownlie. If it is, along with Bruback, that's a pretty good return on Lofton who was signed for peanuts, and getting Ramirez' contract off the books. If I were the Pirates, though, I'd much rather Mark Bellhorn who the Cubs traded for Captain K.

The Pirates could have a good young rotation starting next year. With Lyon and Bruback, and Bullington and Burnett waiting in the wings.

[-tz]

http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0722/1584326.html

[deranged2005]

Excuse the puns

Pirates really going overboard here, now they'll just sink to the bottom. Coulda got someone good, but they didn't, GM should walk the plank.

Ok, those were terrible.

[Rich]

How long before they trade Giles? He would hardly seem to fit with the Pirates' rebuilding program.

[Spiker]

Originally posted by Rich
How long before they trade Giles? He would hardly seem to fit with the Pirates' rebuilding program.

I don't think they have any choice but to trade him now. And damned if I want to see him go to Oakland. The Yanks have got to get involved. The fire sale is on in Pittsburgh and only a fool would pretend otherwise. Giles could make the difference in the fortunes of a whole bunch of teams.

[backstop20]

Originally posted by Spiker


I don't think they have any choice but to trade him now. And damned if I want to see him go to Oakland. The Yanks have got to get involved. The fire sale is on in Pittsburgh and only a fool would pretend otherwise. Giles could make the difference in the fortunes of a whole bunch of teams.

Who would Pittsburgh want back?

[Spiker]

Originally posted by backstop20

Who would Pittsburgh want back?

From the Yankees? Probably NJ and Claussen. They'll probably settle for NJ and a lesser pitching prospect, and I think hard about that, but don't do it without a window to get him extended, Giles I mean.

[backstop20]

Originally posted by Spiker


From the Yankees? Probably NJ and Claussen. They'll probably settle for NJ and a lesser pitching prospect, and I think hard about that, but don't do it without a window to get him extended, Giles I mean.

I've read that Pittsburgh is trying to attach Kendall to any Giles deal(though I'm not sure if that's still the case). What would the Yankees do with Kendall?

How about the team keeps NJ and gives them Claussen and Navarro?
But that would probably suck because from what I've read here and in the media, they are the Yankees two best prospects.

[koko]

The Pirates know that

a) Giles is their most sought after player
b) Kendall's contract is a cancer on the club

Anyone who takes Giles would have to give up some big time, ML ready prospects and take Kendall's contract.

[Saxmania]

Originally posted by backstop20

I've read that Pittsburgh is trying to attach Kendall to any Giles deal(though I'm not sure if that's still the case). What would the Yankees do with Kendall?

How about the team keeps NJ and gives them Claussen and Navarro?
But that would probably suck because from what I've read here and in the media, they are the Yankees two best prospects.

1) Get rid of Kendall and pay most of his salary (Astros?)
2) Use him as a DH (if Johnson goes), 1B, and C to spell Posada and Giambi.
3) Refuse to take him, and have to give up more prospects.

I would favor 2), because we're going to end up paying for him anyway, so we might as well get some production out of him, and he's not a poor hitter, just a powerless one, for whom there's a tiny chance at a return to his 2000 plateau.

I would prefer to trade NJ than Claussen; Johnson's got a slight injury history, and Claussen's departure would leave us with a big hole in our 2004 rotation. It frees up our DH spot, too, which allows us to rest Posada, Bernie, and whomever more often. E.g.:

SS Jeter
LF Matsui
2B Soriano
1B/DH Giambi
RF Giles
CF Williams
C Posada
DH/1B Kendall (plus back-up catcher)
3B ????

Bench K. Garcia
Bench E. Wilson
Bench E. Almonte
Bench J. Rivera
Bench Anyone but freakin' T. Zeile

SP Mussina
SP Wells
SP Contreras
SP Claussen
SP Lieber/????

RP Rivera
RP Karsay
RP Hammond
RP Osuna
RP Choate
RP ????

This roster would cost less than this year (drop Mondesi, Hitchcock, Clemens, Pettitte, Ventura, Benitez, Zeile' salaries; add Giles, Kendall, 3Ber, and spare parts) and yet have even better offense. Starting pitching would be a question mark, but not a terrifying one. Play around the order all you like, but you have three massive hitters (Giles, Giambi, Soriano), four good-to-great all-around hitters (Jeter, Williams, Posada, Matsui), and a couple of players who will probably be at least average (Kendall, 3Ber). Hell, you could play Wilson at 3B and still score a heck of a lot of runs if everyone's healthy.

But I think we need Claussen for the rotation next year, quite frankly. Man, this post was longer than I intended. NJ and Graman for Giles, Kendall, and a relief prospect.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Spiker]

Originally posted by Saxmania



I would prefer to trade NJ than Claussen; Johnson's got a slight injury history, and Claussen's departure would leave us with a big hole in our 2004 rotation. It frees up our DH spot, too, which allows us to rest Posada, Bernie, and whomever more often. E.g.:

This roster would cost less than this year (drop Mondesi, Hitchcock, Clemens, Pettitte, Ventura, Benitez, Zeile' salaries; add Giles, Kendall, 3Ber, and spare parts) and yet have even better offense. Starting pitching would be a question mark, but not a terrifying one. Play around the order all you like, but you have three massive hitters (Giles, Giambi, Soriano), four good-to-great all-around hitters (Jeter, Williams, Posada, Matsui), and a couple of players who will probably be at least average (Kendall, 3Ber). Hell, you could play Wilson at 3B and still score a heck of a lot of runs if everyone's healthy.

But I think we need Claussen for the rotation next year, quite frankly. Man, this post was longer than I intended. NJ and Graman for Giles, Kendall, and a relief prospect.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I pretty much agree with your reasoning but the problem with Giles is that he's saddled with a contract problem and if he's traded he can get out from under it. He's grossly underpaid and would demand to be traded or given free agency. So if you're going to give up NJ or Claussen, you have to have a window to see if your can sign him longterm at a reasonable rate and that's problematical. Even if you signed him, a lot of his value would be lost because he would undoubtably have to be paid a lot more money. That's why I don't understand why the Pirates didn't trade him before the season, so the acquiring team can get at least a full year of Giles at the bargain rate.

[Saxmania]

Originally posted by Spiker


I pretty much agree with your reasoning but the problem with Giles is that he's saddled with a contract problem and if he's traded he can get out from under it. He's grossly underpaid and would demand to be traded or given free agency. So if you're going to give up NJ or Claussen, you have to have a window to see if your can sign him longterm at a reasonable rate and that's problematical. Even if you signed him, a lot of his value would be lost because he would undoubtably have to be paid a lot more money. That's why I don't understand why the Pirates didn't trade him before the season, so the acquiring team can get at least a full year of Giles at the bargain rate.

At the same time, I understand that Giles is signed through 2005. So any team that traded for him would get at least a year of full value (2004) before re-signing considerations became urgent. If the Yankees traded for him in the offseason, I'd be optimistic that we could sign him longer-term (4/5 years) for $15m/per, which is less than we'd have to pay for Vlad in my opinion, and would give us effectively a second Giambi at a more valuable defensive position.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[caroline331]

I think Giles has a no trade clause in his contract, and I believe he would only accept a trade to certian teams (I don't think either NY team is one of them)

[Looie #19]

Originally posted by koko
Anyone who takes Giles would have to give up some big time, ML ready prospects and take Kendall's contract.

I've heard quite the opposite. Whoever simply takes Kendall, gets Giles. Two middling prospects and agreeing to take Kendall gets you Brian Giles. If you saw what Kendall is signed for and were running the Pirates, you'd do that deal as well. Frankly, I don't think anyone would take on Kendall even if that means getting a couple years of Brian Giles also.

[Spiker]

Originally posted by Saxmania


At the same time, I understand that Giles is signed through 2005. So any team that traded for him would get at least a year of full value (2004) before re-signing considerations became urgent. If the Yankees traded for him in the offseason, I'd be optimistic that we could sign him longer-term (4/5 years) for $15m/per, which is less than we'd have to pay for Vlad in my opinion, and would give us effectively a second Giambi at a more valuable defensive position.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Giles is signed through '06. I'm not sure exactly how the rule works, whether a player traded in the middle of the season gets the right to demand a trade after that season or whether he has to wait a full season before making the demand. In any case, let's say it's the later, so you get Giles for one year at $9 million and then have to pay him $15 million per the following three years. That's a total of $54 million for four years. While I'm fairly certain that he'll give you more production that NJ would over those four years, NJ will only have to be paid roughly $10 million or so. The question is is there a $44 million worth of difference between NJ and Brian Giles? I would think not.

[Looie #19]

Giles isn't a 10/5 guy, his rights to accept or demand a trade goes only as far as what is written into his contract.

[backstop20]

Originally posted by Looie #19
Giles isn't a 10/5 guy, his rights to accept or demand a trade goes only as far as what is written into his contract.

pittsburghlive.com 11/21/01

By By Joe Rutter

Right-hander Mike Fetters, taking advantage of a 15-day window of opportunity following the World Series, formally filed a trade demand yesterday. As a veteran player, he earned the right to make the demand because he was traded to the Pirates while in the middle of a multi-year contract.

If the Pirates cannot trade Fetters by March 15, he can either become a free agent or rescind the demand. If Fetters declares free agency, he will forfeit the $2.4 million that is guaranteed to him next season.

copyright © 2003 by The Tribune-Review Publishing Co.