Welcome back home Marcus Thames

[flymick24]

Originally Posted by TheBamTino24

Thames is low-risk, high-reward. Good signing by Cashman.

more like low-risk, moderate reward

[TheInfallibleOne]

Originally Posted by delv

To be fair, Boston added two dark skinned players this offseason.



Also, concerning the return of some ex-Yankees, I wonder if it's Cashman's way of saying "See, this is what we'd have if the Boss hadn't been running the show all this time."

Affirmative Action in all its glory. Nothing more.

Theo HAD to acquire those 2, otherwise they might as well hang a "Whites Only" sign over the home clubhouse.

[delv]

Originally Posted by kan_t

He's not much different than Coke. If the Yankees carry Coke, they will likely consider about carrying Logan.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. Coke is an above average lefty reliever, man. Loogan has been crap for a while now. Check out their numbers in the majors, as well as in the minors. Coke was better as a starter in the minors (and as a reliever in the majors) than Logan has ever been in his whole career as a reliever.

People really hate on Coke, even though the man has had a WHIP under 1.00 in 74 major league innings.

[ArodEra]

Originally Posted by ThePinStripes

except for the year before last year.

2010 (based on 2009 numbers)
Nick Swisher: 129 OPS+
Brett Gardner: 93 OPS+
Curtis Granderson: 100 OPS+

Average: 107 OPS+

2008
Bobby Abreu- 120 OPS+
Brelky Garbrera: 64 OPS+
Johnny Damon: 118 OPS+

100.66 OPS+


2007 works out to about 105 ERA+ (didn't feel like weighting it with Damon and Matsui doing a lot of DHing between them)

I was speaking in terms of our projected OF for 2010 (the players you stated above) and the recent reserves we acquired in Winn and Thames. We don't know how this will play out yet, but if we were to include all 5, it will be one of the worst OF's (offensively) in Yankee history.

Let's take your 2008 numbers and compare. (By the way, "Brelky" was at 68 OPS+, no great shakes but still changes the numbers).

Again, we don't know how many AB's each player will have, but this is just a rough average for comparison's sake:

2008
Bobby Abreu- 120 OPS+
Brelky Garbrera: 68 OPS+
Johnny Damon: 118 OPS+
Xavier Nady: 105 OPS+
Hideki Matsui: 108+ OPS

103.8 OPS+

Yes, Matsui only started 23 Games in the OF, but barring injury, I wouldn't expect Thames to start much more in the OF, at least I hope he doesn't. Plus, I don't think Winn starts as many times as Nady did when he came over, so it almost balances out, however skewed.

2010 (based on 2009 numbers)
Nick Swisher: 129 OPS+
Brett Gardner: 93 OPS+
Curtis Granderson: 100 OPS+
Randy Winn: 75 OPS+
Marcus Thames: 99 OPS+

99.2 OPS+

Again, this isn't an exact science, but the bottom line is that if these players perform similarly offensively in 2010 as they did in 2009, the OF stats won't be pretty. It would actually be unacceptable, considering that the Yanks won it all in 2009, and if they were to be re-tooled, the OF shouldn't potentially look like an OF the Mets would build.

Now, if Granderson and Winn (and Thames to an extent) find the bats they used prior to 2009, plus if Yankee Stadium improves on Granderson's numbers, then Cashman looks like a hero. But, it's silly to judge these moves based on how we want or wish these players to play, or on how they did 2, 3 or 6 years ago. We can't rationalize possible decline with any certainty. The same way that I can't predict that 2009 will repeat itself. Lots of "ifs" but should the reigning world champs with the highest payroll (by far) have all these "ifs" in the OF coming into 2010, months after they won it all?

[delv]

Originally Posted by ArodEra

I was speaking in terms of our projected OF for 2010 (the players you stated above) and the recent reserves we acquired in Winn and Thames. We don't know how this will play out yet, but if we were to include all 5, it will be one of the worst OF's (offensively) in Yankee history.

Let's take your 2008 numbers and compare. (By the way, "Brelky" was at 68 OPS+, no great shakes but still changes the numbers).

Again, we don't know how many AB's each player will have, but this is just a rough average for comparison's sake:

2008
Bobby Abreu- 120 OPS+
Brelky Garbrera: 68 OPS+
Johnny Damon: 118 OPS+
Xavier Nady: 105 OPS+
Hideki Matsui: 108+ OPS

103.8 OPS+

Yes, Matsui only started 23 Games in the OF, but barring injury, I wouldn't expect Thames to start much more in the OF, at least I hope he doesn't.

2010 (based on 2009 numbers)
Nick Swisher: 129 OPS+
Brett Gardner: 93 OPS+
Curtis Granderson: 100 OPS+
Randy Winn: 75 OPS+
Marcus Thames: 99 OPS+

99.2 OPS+

Again, this isn't an exact science, but the bottom line is that if these players perform similarly offensively in 2010 as they did in 2009, the OF stats won't be pretty. It would actually be unacceptable, considering that the Yanks won it all in 2009, and if they were to be re-tooled, the OF shouldn't potentially look like an OF the Mets would build.

Now, if Granderson and Winn (and Thames to an extent) find the bats they used prior to 2009, plus if Yankee Stadium improves on Granderson's numbers, then Cashman looks like a hero. But, we can not base these moves on how we want or wish these players to play, or what they did 2, 3 or 6 years ago. The same way that I can't predict that 2009 will repeat itself for these players. It's all speculation.

So an OF of around 100 OPS+ is worst in Yankee history? Sounds like... um.. average,... by definition.

[kan_t]

Originally Posted by delv

Couldn't be farther from the truth. Coke is an above average lefty reliever, man. Loogan has been crap for a while now. Check out their numbers in the majors, as well as in the minors. Coke was better as a starter in the minors (and as a reliever in the majors) than Logan has ever been in his whole career as a reliever.

People really hate on Coke, even though the man has had a WHIP under 1.00 in 74 major league innings.

Last year vs lefties

Coke .195/.218/.366
Logan .231/.318/.308

Coke is better, but not by much IMO. Normally OBP is more important than SLG. But in relief situation giving up long ball can do much more damage than sending hitters on base. If the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is for real, I don't know why the Yankees won't consider to give him Coke's spot.

Again, the main point is if the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is for real. A good ST sure can boost the Yankees' confidence. If the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is a fluke, then all points are moot. He will be the odd man out.

[ArodEra]

Originally Posted by delv

So an OF of around 100 OPS+ is worst in Yankee history? Sounds like... um.. average,... by definition.

You must be...um...forgetting who has played for the Yankees. Ruth's OPS+ of 256 in 1920 was just about equal to Granderson's, Winn's and Gardner's combined. I fathom that with a career OPS+ of 207, the OF during the Ruth era was better than what we'll get in 2010. (Meusel was always around 120, Combs, around 130 or so).

DiMaggio had a career 155 OPS+, a few times as high as in the 180's. He played along Henrich, a career 132 OPS+ guy. Put Brian Cashman in that OF alongside them and it's better offensively; better than 99.2.

Mantle had a career 172 OPS+, never lower than 140, as high as 210. Let's put Bugs Bunny next to him to cover both LF and RF and it's still a better OF than 99.2 OPS+. But, instead he had the likes of Maris, Berra and Bauer, etc..

The 1970 World Champ Yanks had Reggie between 150-170 OPS+ during his Yankee career, Lou Piniella at around 130, Roy White, 120's. Mickey Rivers the low man at about 100, but was considered the catalyst.

The 1990's 4 ring dynasty had Bernie in the 140-160 OPS+ area (125 career), O'Neill in the 130's (career 120) and assorted "weak links" like Curtis (90 OPS+) and Ledee (110).

So yeah, 2010 could quite possibly be one of the worst, if not worst OF in Yankee history (if they repeat 2009 performances). I fathom even worse than the 1965-1975 OF's of Roy White, Murcer, Bobby Bonds, etc. I'll have to look that one up. There very well could have been worse specific years than a combined 99.2 OPS+, but I'm sure not very many, if any..

[flymick24]

logan was a throw in, nothing more

if he contributes anything on the ML level, we'll be lucky

[delv]

Originally Posted by kan_t

Last year vs lefties

Coke .195/.218/.366
Logan .231/.318/.308

Coke is better, but not by much IMO. Normally OBP is more important than SLG. But in relief situation giving up long ball can do much more damage than sending hitters on base. If the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is for real, I don't know why the Yankees won't consider to give him Coke's spot.

Again, the main point is if the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is for real. A good ST sure can boost the Yankees' confidence. If the Yankees think that the 2009 Logan is a fluke, then all points are moot. He will be the odd man out.

2009 Logan? His overall #s were still caca. I wouldn't trust a SSS of work against lefties.

Also, that Coke/Logan difference is huge. I dunno how you can overlook #s like that.



I agree w/ flymick that Logan was a throw-in.

[Cool Papa B.]

Originally Posted by brosiusbuddy

I was at that game. Jeter homered and Shane Spencer hit a grand slam that day too.

I was at that game.! I sat in the 1st row tier box seat behind home plate. My friend & I looked at each other and said "It will NEVER get better for him than this!" Playing in Yankee Stadium; first game; first pitch of your major league career. Come on!!!!

Welcome back Marcus!!!!

[delv]

Originally Posted by ArodEra

You must be...um...forgetting who has played for the Yankees. Ruth's OPS+ of 256 in 1920 was just about equal to Granderson's, Winn's and Gardner's combined. I fathom that with a career OPS+ of 207, the OF during the Ruth era was better than what we'll get in 2010. (Meusel was always around 120, Combs, around 130 or so).

DiMaggio had a career 155 OPS+, a few times as high as in the 180's. He played along Henrich, a career 132 OPS+ guy.

Mantle had a career 172 OPS+, never lower than 140, as high as 210. Put Bugs Bunny next to him and it's still a better OF. But, instead he had the likes of Maris, Berra and Bauer.

The 1970 World Champ Yanks had Reggie between 150-170 OPS+ during his Yankee career, Lou Piniella at around 130, Roy White, 120's and Mickey Rivers the low man at about 100, but was the catalyst.

The 1990's 4 ring dynasty had Bernie in the 140-160 OPS+ area (125 career), O'Neill in the 130's (career 120) and assorted "weak links" like Curtis (90 OPS+) and Ledee (110).

So yeah, 2010 could quite possibly be one of the worst, if not worst OF in Yankee history (if they repeat 2009 performances). I fathom even worse than the 1965-1975 OF's of Roy White, Murcer, Bobby Bonds, etc. I'll have to look that one up. There very well could have been worse specific years than a combined 99.2 OPS+, but I'm sure not very many, if any..

lol. Sure,... if you cite only our HOF OFers. How about all the years of Shane Spencer and Chuck Knoblauch and bad Lofton? You're way offbase, guy. I have nothing to say.

[ArodEra]

Originally Posted by delv

lol. Sure,... if you cite only our HOF OFers. How about all the years of Shane Spencer and Chuck Knoblauch and bad Lofton? You're way offbase, guy. I have nothing to say.

I site our HOF's because that's exactly who we had in the OF. Should I pretend they didn't exist? LOL. I am saying that if the players repeat their 2009 years in 2010 this could be one of the worst if not worst offensive OF's in Yankee history. Am I wrong?

Go on...add Spencer to the 1990's OF or even the 108 games Knoblauch played in left and do the math. Be my guest. My guess is you don't get under 99.2 combined or anywhere near as close or "bad".


Edit:

Quick check. The Yanks basically went with a 4 man OF in 2001 (your Knobby/Spencer example):

Bernie - 138
Knoblauch: 82
O'Neill: 104
Spencer: 92

104 OPS+

Let's not forget that this was O'Neill's last year, Bernie starting his decline (one more good year), and Knoblauch's pretty much toast at this point. And yet, they still fared better than 99.2 OPS+.

[ArodEra]

Originally Posted by delv

lol. Sure,... if you cite only our HOF OFers. How about all the years of Shane Spencer and Chuck Knoblauch and bad Lofton? You're way offbase, guy. I have nothing to say.

Not to make my above post confusing, I'll add the Lofton year in this post.

It would be nice if you checked the facts the next time you randomly throw names out there to try to prove your point and disprove mine:

2004
Lofton: 95 OPS+
Sheff: 141 OPS+
Matsui: 131 OPS+
Bernie: 108 OPS+

118.75 OPS+

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, but to argue the point that a potential OF with an average 99.2 OPS+ wouldn't be one of the worst (probably the worst) in Yankees history is silly and futile. Does it mean that's what we get in 2010? Probably (hopefully) not, judging by their entire careers be we can't say we definitely won't, with any certainty, either.

[NYYRules#1]

Originally Posted by ArodEra

You must be...um...forgetting who has played for the Yankees. Ruth's OPS+ of 256 in 1920 was just about equal to Granderson's, Winn's and Gardner's combined. I fathom that with a career OPS+ of 207, the OF during the Ruth era was better than what we'll get in 2010. (Meusel was always around 120, Combs, around 130 or so).

DiMaggio had a career 155 OPS+, a few times as high as in the 180's. He played along Henrich, a career 132 OPS+ guy. Put Brian Cashman in that OF alongside them and it's better offensively; better than 99.2.

Mantle had a career 172 OPS+, never lower than 140, as high as 210. Let's put Bugs Bunny next to him to cover both LF and RF and it's still a better OF than 99.2 OPS+. But, instead he had the likes of Maris, Berra and Bauer, etc..

The 1970 World Champ Yanks had Reggie between 150-170 OPS+ during his Yankee career, Lou Piniella at around 130, Roy White, 120's. Mickey Rivers the low man at about 100, but was considered the catalyst.

The 1990's 4 ring dynasty had Bernie in the 140-160 OPS+ area (125 career), O'Neill in the 130's (career 120) and assorted "weak links" like Curtis (90 OPS+) and Ledee (110).

So yeah, 2010 could quite possibly be one of the worst, if not worst OF in Yankee history (if they repeat 2009 performances). I fathom even worse than the 1965-1975 OF's of Roy White, Murcer, Bobby Bonds, etc. I'll have to look that one up. There very well could have been worse specific years than a combined 99.2 OPS+, but I'm sure not very many, if any..

Yes, let's compare the guys who will be filling our 9 slot to legendary hitters like Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Reggie Jackson, etc.

Hell, if I'm going to be comparing guys to Ruth in 1920, I can gripe about our infield too.

This is so far from the worst OF in Yankee history, and that 99.2 OPS+ number has little basis in reality. The entire point of acquiring guys like Granderson and Winn was that they had extremely low BABIPs in 2009 without concurrent drops on LD%, meaning that they could reasonably be expected to improve greatly on their 2009 numbers. It's the same thought process that went into acquiring Swisher last year, and look how well that worked out. Plus, the overwhelming majority of Thames' at-bats will come against LHP, who he hits far and away better than he hits RHP. Keep in mind that due to Thames' presence, our flexibility to give Granderson off days against LHP is increased, which would result in an increase in his stats as well.

[delv]

What did one mountain say to the other mountain?

[delv]

Let's meet in the valley.

[ArodEra]

Originally Posted by NYYRules#1

Yes, let's compare the guys who will be filling our 9 slot to legendary hitters like Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle, Reggie Jackson, etc.

Hell, if I'm going to be comparing guys to Ruth in 1920, I can gripe about our infield too.

This is so far from the worst OF in Yankee history, and that 99.2 OPS+ number has little basis in reality. The entire point of acquiring guys like Granderson and Winn was that they had extremely low BABIPs in 2009 without concurrent drops on LD%, meaning that they could reasonably be expected to improve greatly on their 2009 numbers. It's the same thought process that went into acquiring Swisher last year, and look how well that worked out. Plus, the overwhelming majority of Thames' at-bats will come against LHP, who he hits far and away better than he hits RHP. Keep in mind that due to Thames' presence, our flexibility to give Granderson off days against LHP is increased, which would result in an increase in his stats as well.

When did I compare this OF to those legendary players? That wasn't my intent. It just so happens that these players played for the Yanks and does nothing to diminish my contention that a 99.2 OPS+ would be the worst (or one of the worst) in Yankee history. My point is that if they repeat their 2009 seasons, we will see a Yankee OF performance - a poor one at that - that we probably have never seen before, regardless of who wore the pinstripes. As a matter of fact, I even looked at the sickly mid 60's-70's teams and their OF's don't get as "bad" as 99.2 as average a number as that might be.

My other point is that as reigning world champs and the highest payroll in baseball by far, do we deserve relative/potential mediocrity and so many "ifs?"

I'm also not saying that we will definitely get a repeat performance from them, but one cannot deny their low OPS + and some gaping holes in their games in 2009, whether it's against LHP, very possible performance decline (Winn) and who the heck knows what we get with Gardner for 162. Thames? Have we resorted to sign players to compensate for the deficiencies (Granderson against LHP) of key players?

[delv]

Have you heard about the restaurant on the moon?

[delv]

Great food, but no atmosphere.

[ArodEra]

And the reason people randomly throw out Lofton's, Spencer's and Knoblauch's names is? To back their..umm..."argument?" Now look what they resort to when they got no place to go. It's a LOLz fest.