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  1. #976

    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3
    Right. Intent makes a huge difference here.
    It doesn't anywhere else.

    Negligence is negligence. Even if you didn't intend to cause harm and even if you feel bad about what resulted.

    (I am assuming you are referring to the ump, not to Proctor).

  2. #977
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3
    Right. Intent makes a huge difference here.
    No argument with your statement, but regardless of intent, there should be consequences for negligence of that magnitude. I wouldn't have any problem with a short suspension.
    Watch this space for a pithy new signature, now under construction!

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    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasbro
    It doesn't anywhere else.

    Negligence is negligence. Even if you didn't intend to cause harm and even if you feel bad about what resulted.

    (I am assuming you are referring to the ump, not to Proctor).
    Yes, negligence is negligence. But it's not malice. The ump was negligent; Proctor was malicious.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  4. #979
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasbro
    It doesn't anywhere else.

    Negligence is negligence. Even if you didn't intend to cause harm and even if you feel bad about what resulted.

    (I am assuming you are referring to the ump, not to Proctor).
    Incorrect. Negligence is distinguishable from an intentional tort.
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

  5. #980
    Released Outright Won Gien Ming's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    I love how certain posters on these boards always defend "the bash of the day," regardless of how much the "bashee" deserves to be bashed. Some people like TEP seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing, playing devil's advocate, and acting like they're the defender of the universe. It makes me sick to see how such a horrendously important bad call go unpunished and how certain posters here see it as no big deal, blaming everything/everyone else (including the Yankees) OTHER than the umpire and the fact that MLB is the ONLY major professional sport to not have instant replay.

    Like I've said in my previous posts (several pages back), I don't fully fault the ump for this disgusting game-changing mistake. You can make all the excuses you want, but the facts remain: this blown call was not even close, it resulted in a Yankees loss, and if there was instant replay in baseball, this wouldn't have happened.

    Keep on arguing meaninglessly. Because some of you people are either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb to see this bad call for what it really is: yet ANOTHER great reason for instant replay to be in MLB.

  6. #981
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    I love how certain posters on these boards always defend "the bash of the day," regardless of how much the "bashee" deserves to be bashed. Some people like TEP seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing, playing devil's advocate, and acting like they're the defender of the universe. It makes me sick to see how such a horrendously important bad call go unpunished and how certain posters here see it as no big deal, blaming everything/everyone else (including the Yankees) OTHER than the umpire and the fact that MLB is the ONLY major professional sport to not have instant replay.

    Like I've said in my previous posts (several pages back), I don't fully fault the ump for this disgusting game-changing mistake. You can make all the excuses you want, but the facts remain: this blown call was not even close, it resulted in a Yankees loss, and if there was instant replay in baseball, this wouldn't have happened.

    Keep on arguing meaninglessly. Because some of you people are either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb to see this bad call for what it really is: yet ANOTHER great reason for instant replay to be in MLB.
    Well said.
    Fire Tanaka

  7. #982

    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    Incorrect. Negligence is distinguishable from an intentional tort.
    Relevance? I never said the bad call was intentional. In fact, I have explicitly said I don't know anyone who would argue that.

    The ump was negligent. It doesn't matter that he intended to make the right call. He has a duty to position himself properly to give himself the best viewpoint to judge the play -- or short of that, to ask for assistance from another ump -- and he failed to fulfill that duty.

    He didn't even try to fulfill it.

  8. #983
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    I love how certain posters on these boards always defend "the bash of the day," regardless of how much the "bashee" deserves to be bashed. Some people like TEP seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing, playing devil's advocate, and acting like they're the defender of the universe. It makes me sick to see how such a horrendously important bad call go unpunished and how certain posters here see it as no big deal, blaming everything/everyone else (including the Yankees) OTHER than the umpire and the fact that MLB is the ONLY major professional sport to not have instant replay.
    Who's defending Davis? I just didn't think it was a suspendable offense. The purpose of the suspension/firing is either to (a) deter future misbehaviour; or (b) remove the offender from the game to prevent his negative influence.

    (a) Doesn't apply because he obviously didn't blow the call on purpose, so there is no behaviour to deter.
    (b) Doesn't apply because he is generally a good umpire, so his "negative influence" is realtively nonexistent.

    But my apologies for not wanting to lynch the whomever the knee-jerk reactionaries want to bash on any given day. I suppose if you were running the world we'd have fired Torre, Cashman, Mattingly, etc. and have traded away ARod, Mo, Abreu, and cut Melky, Mientkiewicz, Igawa, Phelps, etc. long ago while probably trading the farm away for aging vets - like the Yankees of the 80s but run even more incompetently.

    If you don't like different opinions put me on ignore or join the YES boards where everyone clamours together about how so-and-so sucks every day. I'm sure its very intellectually stimulating. Actually it would fit perfectly with your belief that those who don't agree with you are "either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb" to keep up.
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

  9. #984
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Nice post Won Gien

  10. #985
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasbro
    Relevance? I never said the bad call was intentional. In fact, I have explicitly said I don't know anyone who would argue that.

    The ump was negligent. It doesn't matter that he intended to make the right call. He has a duty to position himself properly to give himself the best viewpoint to judge the play -- or short of that, to ask for assistance from another ump -- and he failed to fulfill that duty.

    He didn't even try to fulfill it.
    For the purposes of punishment, I tend to believe that an intentional act is more egregious than an unintentional one.
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

  11. #986

    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    The purpose of the suspension/firing is either to (a) deter future misbehaviour; or (b) remove the offender from the game to prevent his negative influence.

    (a) Doesn't apply because he obviously didn't blow the call on purpose, so there is no behaviour to deter.
    His misstep was not the call per se -- it was his failure to exercise the proper care to put himself in the best position to make the call, or to at least acknowledge he could not see the bag and to ask for assistance.

    Those acts of omission are certainly behaviors worth deterring.

  12. #987

    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    For the purposes of punishment, I tend to believe that an intentional act is more egregious than an unintentional one.
    I agree 100%. But that doesn't mean the less egregious act isn't egregious at all, does it?

  13. #988
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasbro
    I agree 100%. But that doesn't mean the less egregious act isn't egregious at all, does it?
    Nope - which is why I have been advocating that he receive an official warning.

    I don't think we're that far apart on this issue.
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    I love how certain posters on these boards always defend "the bash of the day," regardless of how much the "bashee" deserves to be bashed. Some people like TEP seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing, playing devil's advocate, and acting like they're the defender of the universe. It makes me sick to see how such a horrendously important bad call go unpunished and how certain posters here see it as no big deal, blaming everything/everyone else (including the Yankees) OTHER than the umpire and the fact that MLB is the ONLY major professional sport to not have instant replay.

    Like I've said in my previous posts (several pages back), I don't fully fault the ump for this disgusting game-changing mistake. You can make all the excuses you want, but the facts remain: this blown call was not even close, it resulted in a Yankees loss, and if there was instant replay in baseball, this wouldn't have happened.

    Keep on arguing meaninglessly. Because some of you people are either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb to see this bad call for what it really is: yet ANOTHER great reason for instant replay to be in MLB.
    I love how certain posters on this board feel that it is ok to call people that disagree with them ignorant, blind and/or dumb.

  15. #990
    Released Outright Won Gien Ming's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    Who's defending Davis? I just didn't think it was a suspendable offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    If there was a good faith error on behalf of my otherwise reliable and good employee, who later agreed that they made a mistake and honestly stated that they would make aconcerted effort to be more careful in the future, I wouldn't do anything more than give them a talking-to and tell them to be more careful. The fact that you would even hint as suspending/firing them for such an offense suggests to me that you don't have significant mangerial experience.
    Yeah, you weren't defending him... You just want to give him a slap on the wrist for this incident.


    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    These calls even themselves out over the course of the year. Yes, it sucks at the time, but the Yankees have been the beneficiaries of many such calls over the years.

    How soon we forget the phantom tag on Knobby and Jeff Maier...
    More excuses...

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    I am willing to bet that most people have screwed up roayally at their job at least once. Fortunately, most of our jobs aren't televised nor are we scrutinized daily by 1M+ rabid fans.
    More excuses and analogies.


    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    The purpose of the suspension/firing is either to (a) deter future misbehaviour; or (b) remove the offender from the game to prevent his negative influence.

    (a) Doesn't apply because he obviously didn't blow the call on purpose, so there is no behaviour to deter.
    (b) Doesn't apply because he is generally a good umpire, so his "negative influence" is realtively nonexistent.

    But my apologies for not wanting to lynch the whomever the knee-jerk reactionaries want to bash on any given day. I suppose if you were running the world we'd have fired Torre, Cashman, Mattingly, etc. and have traded away ARod, Mo, Abreu, and cut Melky, Mientkiewicz, Igawa, Phelps, etc. long ago while probably trading the farm away for aging vets - like the Yankees of the 80s but run even more incompetently.

    If you don't like different opinions put me on ignore or join the YES boards where everyone clamours together about how so-and-so sucks every day. I'm sure its very intellectually stimulating. Actually it would fit perfectly with your belief that those who don't agree with you are "either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb" to keep up.
    There you go again. Arguing just for the sake of arguing and bringing up irrelevant statements to defend yourself. Oh and btw, I am completely fine with people disagreeing with me. There's been lots of discussion and differing viewpoints regarding this bad call in this thread. However, you take it to a whole new level by arguing endlessly with whomever disagrees with YOU. Sometimes you should take a look in the mirror before making statements about others when it applies to you even more.

  16. #991

    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    (b) Doesn't apply because he is generally a good umpire, so his "negative influence" is realtively nonexistent.
    Nice to know that the negative influence is relatively nonexistent, except that he made one of the worst calls you will EVER see that cost the Yankees a game.

    But it's just one game, who cares.

  17. #992
    Released Outright Won Gien Ming's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeebot
    I love how certain posters on this board feel that it is ok to call people that disagree with them ignorant, blind and/or dumb.
    Nice of you to take my statement and twisting it, taking it out of context, just to try to make me sound bad. I never said that people who disagree with me are ignorant, blind, and/or dumb. I'm saying that those who don't realize that this bad call is more than just a bad call and that it isn't entirely the ump's fault, should open their eyes and see that the real issue at hand is the fact that MLB refuses to change with the times and use instant replay when all the other major professional sports have. That is the real issue here, even though this terrible call shouldn't have happened in the first place.

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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RIYankee23
    Nice to know that the negative influence is relatively nonexistent, except that he made one of the worst calls you will EVER see that cost the Yankees a game.

    But it's just one game, who cares.
    Everyone cares. The question is what, if any, action should be taken. Have you know Gerry Davis to be a bad ump? I haven't. This is not Country Joe West or Angel Hernandez we're talking about. When an umpire that is well-respected and has been known to be very good historically makes a bad call, maybe the reaction should be a little more tempered.

  19. #994
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    Yeah, you weren't defending him... You just want to give him a slap on the wrist for this incident.
    Define the punishment however you want. I don't think that a blown call alone, in a job where you are asked to use your judgment almost exclusively, warrants a suspension or firing. Maybe I'm just a more forgiving guy than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    There you go again. Arguing just for the sake of arguing and bringing up irrelevant statements to defend yourself.
    You attack me personally for defending the "bashee of the day" and then, when I bring up examples of people who I have defended to illustrate the bredth of people who this encompasses and how ridiculous the bashing looks in retrospect, you tell me its irrelevent. That makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    Oh and btw, I am completely fine with people disagreeing with me.
    I am not the only poster who noted that you called those who disagreed with you "ignorant, blind, and/or dumb."
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

  20. #995
    Released Outright Won Gien Ming's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeebot
    Everyone cares. The question is what, if any, action should be taken. Have you know Gerry Davis to be a bad ump? I haven't. This is not Country Joe West or Angel Hernandez we're talking about. When an umpire that is well-respected and has been known to be very good historically makes a bad call, maybe the reaction should be a little more tempered.
    You do realize that not everyone is calling for him to be suspended/fired, right? In fact, only a very small minority even SUGGESTED it in this thread. However, something should be done to repremand him. I'm not sure what, but such a horrible call can't go unpunished, even if it's a warning of some sort from Selig.

  21. #996
    Man Beyond Your Means TEPLimey's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    You do realize that not everyone is calling for him to be suspended/fired, right? In fact, only a very small minority even SUGGESTED it in this thread. However, something should be done to repremand him. I'm not sure what, but such a horrible call can't go unpunished, even if it's a warning of some sort from Selig.
    But when I argued that he deserved a reprimand, you stated that I was being an apologist for only advocating a "slap on the wrist." You can't have it both ways.
    I have no association with "TEPLimey" at nomaas. Apparently a very disturbed individual likes to get their rocks off on pretending they are me. Sad, really.

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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    Nice of you to take my statement and twisting it, taking it out of context, just to try to make me sound bad. I never said that people who disagree with me are ignorant, blind, and/or dumb. I'm saying that those who don't realize that this bad call is more than just a bad call and that it isn't entirely the ump's fault, should open their eyes and see that the real issue at hand is the fact that MLB refuses to change with the times and use instant replay when all the other major professional sports have. That is the real issue here, even though this terrible call shouldn't have happened in the first place.
    Your words: Keep on arguing meaninglessly. Because some of you people are either too ignorant, blind, and/or dumb to see this bad call for what it really is: yet ANOTHER great reason for instant replay to be in MLB.

    I don't think I twisted it or took it out of context. I'm guess I'm just not sure how I'm supposed to interpret that. I think TEP makes a valid argument and I don't think baseball needs instant replay. What does that make me?

  23. #998
    Released Outright JavyVazquezIsSick's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Who was the ump at the plate, anyone know? He was great all night, I can't remember the last time I wasn't pissed off about the calling of balls and strikes.

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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Won Gien Ming
    You do realize that not everyone is calling for him to be suspended/fired, right? In fact, only a very small minority even SUGGESTED it in this thread. However, something should be done to repremand him. I'm not sure what, but such a horrible call can't go unpunished, even if it's a warning of some sort from Selig.
    Of course. But the person I was respondin to is one of the minority that want him suspended.

  25. #1000
    Released Outright Won Gien Ming's Avatar
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    Re: Official Umps Blew the Game Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    Define the punishment however you want. I don't think that a blown call alone, in a job where you are asked to use your judgment almost exclusively, warrants a suspension or firing. Maybe I'm just a more forgiving guy than you.
    Read the post below when I replied to yankeebot.


    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    You attack me personally for defending the "bashee of the day" and then, when I bring up examples of people who I have defended to illustrate the bredth of people who this encompasses and how ridiculous the bashing looks in retrospect, you tell me its irrelevent. That makes no sense.
    I don't see how me calling you out and saying:
    "Some people like TEP seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing, playing devil's advocate, and acting like they're the defender of the universe..." is "attacking" you personally.

    I called you out for a reason. In almost every thread I read, you're almost always arguing non-stop regardless of the situation with those that even remotely disagree with you. You almost always defend whatever person this forum is talking trash about, no matter how much they deserved to be bashed. You do the same crap in almost every thread I read and this thread is no different. Quit making yourself out to look like the victim here, because you're far from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by TEPLimey
    I am not the only poster who noted that you called those who disagreed with you "ignorant, blind, and/or dumb."
    Yankeebot does the same thing you do, but to a lesser extent. I guess the 2 of you agreeing that I somehow call everyone who disagrees with me ignorant, blind and/or dumb makes it so that I actually said those words? You two put words in my mouth to try and make me look bad. Nice try, but you 2 failed.


    I'm done arguing with you 2. This has gotten off-topic just like you 2 wanted it to. Have fun arguing some more with everyone here. I've made my comments already and shared my opinion about this bad call. Good day.

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