Cashman vs Theo

[stuckinmidwest]

They are deep, but deep in average arms.

Until the young guys are ready.

My point exactly though. An average arm is all it took to get a 24 yo power hitting outfield prospect that we would be salivating over if he were in our minor league system -- let's face it he would not yet have seen major league action in our system. They seem to have a strategy up there of stockpiling pitching depth to use to their advantage on situations like this. Arroyo is a very average pitcher with a ceiling that is not much higher than he has currently performed. With two more guys like this in our system, we could make deals like this too.

[JeffWeaverFan]

For you, it always gets back to Torre.

Your point being? Torre has not done a good job with the pen and him not giving rookies or new guys a shot is one of the reason for it.

[Rich]

Not denying that, but it's laughable now to consider the difference between Arod and Soriano. Much larger than, for example, the gulf between Arod and Manny.

As you tacitly acknowledged, those deals were mostly about money. Granted, Manny is more valuable than Sori, but it's also true that Manny was placed on waivers and no other team claimed him. So the issue isn't cut and dry.

The Rangers did get a very good prospect in Arias in the A-Rod deal, and also received a decent return for Sori.

But I agree that that the Yankees got A-Rod at a discounted price, but that only happened because the Sox declined the discounted price, and they had first crack.

[stuckinmidwest]

Chacon's 2005 ERA+ with the Yankees was 156 (116 with the Rockies).

Arroyo's was 98.

They both have a 5 year average of 100 -- Chacon's 156 was a career stretch that is not likely to be duplicated no matter how much we hope it will. Arroyo was 124 in 04, so don't cherrypick stats.

[Rich]

They both have a 5 year average of 100 -- Chacon's 156 was a career stretch that is not likely to be duplicated no matter how much we hope it will. Arroyo was 124 in 04, so don't cherrypick stats.

Given that Chacon pitched at Coors, which destroys breaking balls (his best pitch), I think it's fair to "cherry pick stats," as well as to highlight recent trends.

[JeffWeaverFan]

They both have a 5 year average of 100 -- Chacon's 156 was a career stretch that is not likely to be duplicated no matter how much we hope it will. Arroyo was 124 in 04, so don't cherrypick stats.

So Chacon has improved greatly after leaving the worst pitchers park in the leauge and Arroyo has gotten much worse with his K/9 going down by about 3. One is on the upside, one is getting worse... Which would you rather have?

[GimeMoMuny]

Theo gets players practically for free, deals that would never be made for Cashman.

It's hard to compare them because of this.

To add on to that: Both organizations have had a lot of chefs in the stew, so it's hard to tell who has been responsible for what.

Moving forward, I think that Cashman wants to be "the man" and will be a lifelong figure in the Yankee organization. I like what I'm hearing from him and I believe he is gaining control. The Damon signing is a huge example.

I'm not sure if Theo has, or will ever have as much respect within the Sox organization. They jerked him around pretty bad recently.

[stuckinmidwest]

So Chacon has improved greatly after leaving the worst pitchers park in the leauge and Arroyo has gotten much worse with his K/9 going down by about 3. One is on the upside, one is getting worse... Which would you rather have?

You are missing the real point here. It's not about Arroyo vs Chacon necessarily, it is the fact that this level of pitcher (notwithstanding which you would rather have) will bring talent back in the right deal. Having depth at this level of starter will enable a general manger to make the right deal when it comes along.

To this point in their career, they are very similar pitchers though. The same age, one very good season per. Question marks about what they will ultimately be.

[Tex_Pettite]

Theo, hands down.

Getting David Ortiz - lucky or not - has to go down as one of the greatest moves in General Managing history.

Trading Garciaparra for Orlando Cabrera and Doug Minkblahblahblah to win their first World Series in 81 years was a ballsy move. I think this is the move that has given Theo the confidence to do what he thinks is best for the team, no matter what.

The Schilling trade.

It's not so much the major moves that makes Theo so good. It's the little ones that fly under the radar. It wasn't long ago that Theo picked up Arroyo off the Pirates DFA scrap heap for nothing, and now trades him for a 24 year old monster potential Wily Mo Pena.

Bill Mueller was a great cheap signing.

Todd Walker, Mark Bellhorn were great gems at 2B for them over the years.

Kevin Millar worked out great for them until his last year. Didn't make much money.

He has also dramatically changed the Red Sox farm system from barren to one of the better systems in the game.

Just this year he made what I think are some super moves.

Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta? Are you serious?

The Josh Beckett trade. Forget Lowell, nothing else matters but getting Beckett.

Coco Crisp is having a monster spring and I think he will be great in Boston.


Cash doesn't have the freedom of Theo. It might not be fair to compare the two. Cash is an excellent GM. I wonder what he could do if he had a good payroll and complete freedom. Theo is a brilliant GM. He's made very few mistakes. Maybe his biggest one was the BK Kim trade. But Hillenbrand stinks so it wasn't even really a mistake. They had Bill Mueller to replace Hillenbrand anyway.

[27IsNext]

I'm not defending Cashman's abilities (or lack thereof) to construct a useful bench. However, forgive me if I'm less than blown away by Theo trading away a number five starter for an outfielder who, beyond his homeruns and okay defense, is beyond useless.

The deal was more than fair.

[SoxfaninNY]

Theo gets discounts on players that Cashman and the Yankees could never get (e.g., the Schilling trade). It's futile to compare them on this basis. That's why the Yankees have to spend more money.

Cashman is the General Manager for the yankees. If other teams fleece him for players that they don't do for other GMs, is that not a reflection on him as the representative of the yankees? This is a guy that signed Jaret Wright for 7M per.

Does Cashman get fleeced because he's the GM of the Yankees? Or do the Yankees get fleeced because Brian Cashman is their GM?

[jonnyc39]

Theo is a brilliant GM. He's made very few mistakes. Maybe his biggest one was the BK Kim trade. But Hillenbrand stinks so it wasn't even really a mistake. They had Bill Mueller to replace Hillenbrand anyway.

The Kim trade is FAR from Theo's biggest mistake. The Sox don't make the playoffs in 03 without that trade.

That said, Cashman is a very good GM. I would seriously consider the Sox going after him if he left the Yankees.

[27IsNext]

Cashman is the General Manager for the yankees. If other teams fleece him for players that they don't do for other GMs, is that not a reflection on him as the representative of the yankees? This is a guy that signed Jaret Wright for 7M per.

Does Cashman get fleeced because he's the GM of the Yankees? Or do the Yankees get fleeced because Brian Cashman is their GM?

Here is someone who isn't familiar with the operation of our front office in recent years.

Wright was a Tampa faction signing. The Yankees could never make deals like this because no one wants to be the team that "helped the Yankees win another World Series." This is what is referred to as the "Yankee Tax" in terms of potential trades.

[SoxfaninNY]

Wright was a Tampa faction signing.

If Wright was indeed a Tampa faction signing, I'll take two steps back on my criticism of Cashman. I understand that George and crew get in his way.

[27IsNext]

If Wright was indeed a Tampa faction signing, I'll take two steps back on my criticism of Cashman. I understand that George and crew get in his way.

Use to get in his way. Thankfully, that garbage looks to be over.

Pavano was a Cashman signing, and there are plenty of examples where criticism of him is justified. That being said, his philosophy is to one day field a team of mostly homegrown players, supplemented by trades and free agents, and to make the team younger, faster, cheaper, more athletic, and better defensively.

[BennyTheJetRodriguez]

I don't know about this, sounds a bit like sour grapes to me. If Cashman offers up Chacon (probably a pretty good comp to Arroyo -- some success and at stretches looks real good, but still a bit of a question mark) for Wily Mo, he probably gets him as well. However, we don't have the pitching depth that they have right now to give up a guy like that -- we might be better in the rotation -- but clearly not as deep. I think the idea that Theo gets guys for less is simply a myth. Maybe he is just better at looking at what other teams need and making the most of it.

1)He got Mark Lorretta(04 silver slugger, top 10mvp voting...very good numbers in 05 until he got hurt) for Doug Mirabelli. I don't think I need to express how useless Doug Mirabelli is. That was a Flat out hand out.
2)Schilling would have taken Nick Johnson, Alfonso Soriano and some. Boston got him for Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, Jorge de la Rosa, and Michael Goss. Come on.

Those are flat out handouts.

[BennyTheJetRodriguez]

If Wright was indeed a Tampa faction signing, I'll take two steps back on my criticism of Cashman. I understand that George and crew get in his way.

Cash made no bones about the fact that he was against Wright and Womack.

[Rich]

Cashman is the General Manager for the yankees. If other teams fleece him for players that they don't do for other GMs, is that not a reflection on him as the representative of the yankees? This is a guy that signed Jaret Wright for 7M per.

Does Cashman get fleeced because he's the GM of the Yankees? Or do the Yankees get fleeced because Brian Cashman is their GM?

Until this past off season, he has only be the titular GM.

It's really beyond dispute that the Yankees have been run by a baseball committee, most recently headed by Emslie and Connor.

Case in point, Stick Michael, the primary architect of the four championship teams, was ignored by George in recent years until Cash was recently given decision making authority.

[SoxfaninNY]

1)He got Mark Lorretta(04 silver slugger, top 10mvp voting...very good numbers in 05 until he got hurt) for Doug Mirabelli. I don't think I need to express how useless Doug Mirabelli is. That was a Flat out hand out.
2)Schilling would have taken Nick Johnson, Alfonso Soriano and some. Boston got him for Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, Jorge de la Rosa, and Michael Goss. Come on.

Those are flat out handouts.

yup. they were handouts. it takes a damn good wheeler and dealer to talk someone into giving them handouts.

It makes me think of the difference between Blake, and Shelley Levene. One guy has a pretty expensive watch, and the other whines about weak leads.

-ok, maybe that's unfair, but I'll take any opportunity to make a Glengarry Glen Ross reference.

[Rich]

yup. they were handouts. it takes a damn good wheeler and dealer to talk someone into giving them handouts.

It makes me think of the difference between Blake, and Shelley Levene. One guy has a pretty expensive watch, and the other whines about weak leads.

-ok, maybe that's unfair, but I'll take any opportunity to make a Glengarry Glen Ross reference.

It takes an anti-Yankee bias which pervades much of MLB, and there is no better example of that than Jerry Colangelo.

[Euclis]

Does the anti-yankee bias (which isn't, imo, nearly as pervasive throughout ML front offices as many here seem to think) balance out the huge payroll advantage Cashman enjoys?

[apolansk]

yup. they were handouts. it takes a damn good wheeler and dealer to talk someone into giving them handouts.

It makes me think of the difference between Blake, and Shelley Levene. One guy has a pretty expensive watch, and the other whines about weak leads.

-ok, maybe that's unfair, but I'll take any opportunity to make a Glengarry Glen Ross reference.

I'd rather be Baldwin. He's got a set of brass balls fella.

[DontHateOnNumber2]

I thought this was discussing a fantasy fight between the two. Poop, I'm disappointed.

[GimeMoMuny]

Just this year he made what I think are some super moves.

Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta? Are you serious?

The Josh Beckett trade. Forget Lowell, nothing else matters but getting Beckett.

Coco Crisp is having a monster spring and I think he will be great in Boston.

Are you sure that Theo was responsible for all of these?

And btw, you can't "forget Lowell". The Beckett trade doesn't happen without the Sox assuming the $16M+ that he's owed. It wasn't exactly a stroke of GM genius (IIRC, the two headed GM pulled that one off anyway).

[27IsNext]

(which isn't, imo, nearly as pervasive throughout ML front offices as many here seem to think)

Keep telling yourself that.