+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 57
  1. #1

    I want to get into sabermetrics

    For all of you saber experts out there, what sabermetrics and stats should I really pay attention to, and why? I know things like OBP, SLG (OPS) and UZR are important in evaluating a player, but what are some other things that are out there?

  2. #2
    NYYF Triple Crown

    PaulieIsAwesome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by 27IsNext
    For all of you saber experts out there, what sabermetrics and stats should I really pay attention to, and why? I know things like OBP, SLG (OPS) and UZR are important in evaluating a player, but what are some other things that are out there?
    Well, there are a lot of other statistics out there. My two favorite websites are Hardball Times and Baseball Prospectus.

    Hardball Times' glossary: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/

    BPro's:
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php

    The key to being really interested in sabermetrics is a keen willingness to question anything, and to answer those questions with data collection and analysis.

  3. #3
    Released Outright
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Westchester-ish

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    I really enjoy reading stats and understanding the meaning but when I actually try to apply any knowledge I may have acquired, I feel like my head is going to explode. It just gets so overwhelming.

  4. #4
    NYYF Legend

    DontHateOnNumber2's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Florida

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    I was thinking about really delving into sabermetrics but felt it would be too time consuming and would take out the fun of just enjoying the game of baseball. I'll stick with averages, home run totals, and on base percentages though.
    Disco Stu:
    Nick Swisher has agreed to a $56 mil, 4 year contract with the Cleveland Indians. Good riddance!!!

    teknetic
    .268/.367/.483 .850 during his four years here. Can we get rid of you instead?

  5. #5
    NYYF Legend

    Snatch Catch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CA

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by DontHateOnNumber2
    I was thinking about really delving into sabermetrics but felt it would be too time consuming and would take out the fun of just enjoying the game of baseball. I'll stick with averages, home run totals, and on base percentages though.
    You should start readin up on it. It doesn't take any of the fun out of enjoying the game. In fact, it actually enhances one's enjoyment because you aren't be shepparded by archaic theory and philosophy.

    Not only can it help you enjoy the game much more, but it can resolve questions that you have in your mind about who had a "better" season and who stands to improve, decline, or stand pat.

    I'm not advocating delving into sbermetrics to the point of creating your own formulas and stuff (although that is certainly interesting), but instead embracing it so that you can understand and appreciate the telling analysis that others do in the field.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  6. #6
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Long Island

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch
    You should start readin up on it. It doesn't take any of the fun out of enjoying the game. In fact, it actually enhances one's enjoyment because you aren't be shepparded by archaic theory and philosophy.
    It certainly does take alot of fun out of the game. For those of us who don't live by, dedicate, memorize, and have a masters degree in it are unable to talk to those who are obsessed with it. And made to believe our opinions about a player that we watch every day be viewed as complete sh*t.

    It's like a cult. And I'm waiting for you to come knocking at my door like a Jahova's Witness to convert me.
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball:
    CBS: Evil Empire
    Yahoo: Special OPS

  7. #7
    First Name: Keninovich hardrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    We just don't know

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Pick up a book by Alan Scwarz: The Numbers Game

    It's an extremely fascinating and a good read about those who are obssesed with baseball numbers.
    We toast to the old days and DiMaggio too,
    Billy Martin and Mantle, Whitey Ford and to you

  8. #8
    Released Outright
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Westchester-ish

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by hardrain
    Pick up a book by Alan Scwarz: The Numbers Game

    It's an extremely fascinating and a good read about those who are obssesed with baseball numbers.
    That is the book that got me interested. I picked it up in an airport on a long delay and, one chapter later, I was hooked. Fascinating stuff.

  9. #9

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23
    It certainly does take alot of fun out of the game. For those of us who don't live by, dedicate, memorize, and have a masters degree in it are unable to talk to those who are obsessed with it. And made to believe our opinions about a player that we watch every day be viewed as complete sh*t.

    It's like a cult. And I'm waiting for you to come knocking at my door like a Jahova's Witness to convert me.
    I have to agree with you to a large extent. I'd rather go to a game with someone like you than sit through a game feeling like I'm in a calculus class. But to each his own. I can't say one is wrong or right.

    I think it was Willie Mays who, when asked about what scientific approach he takes to his game and with each of his at bats, said, "I see the ball, I hit the ball."

  10. #10
    NYYF Legend

    Snatch Catch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CA

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23
    It certainly does take alot of fun out of the game. For those of us who don't live by, dedicate, memorize, and have a masters degree in it are unable to talk to those who are obsessed with it. And made to believe our opinions about a player that we watch every day be viewed as complete sh*t.

    It's like a cult. And I'm waiting for you to come knocking at my door like a Jahova's Witness to convert me.
    If, like you said, you don't understand it, how can you knock it?

    It has nothing to do with obsession or memorization, but moreso comprehension.

    Those that are willing to take the time to understand what the numbers mean will be shown another level of baseball knowledge.

    And the reason some people get so up in arms about the statistics, is that people who don't understand them will immediately dismiss and/or ridicule numbers as being "stupid" or the product of"stat-geeks." In the meanwhile, the numbers show definitively, without any room for argument, that the point they are arguing is wrong.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  11. #11
    Released Outright
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Westchester-ish

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooley Womack
    I have to agree with you to a large extent. I'd rather go to a game with someone like you than sit through a game feeling like I'm in a calculus class. But to each his own. I can't say one is wrong or right.

    I think it was Willie Mays who, when asked about what scientific approach he takes to his game and with each of his at bats, said, "I see the ball, I hit the ball."
    Do you have any stat-geek friends that you have been to games with or are you just speculating as to what it would be like? I have just become interested in this end of the game recently but it by no means interferes with that actually watching of a game. As a matter of fact, it never even comes up. When I am watching a game, Jeter is the best SS ever. Bernie still may get a clutch hit. Moose is still going to get a perfecto. You know what I mean.

    I like stats before and after the game. Not during. Evaluate prospects and acquisitions. Predict performance. Suggest outcomes. I do not know a single stat-geek that makes a game seem like a calculus class. In all honesty, I don't even think stats play a part in the game as it is being played. They are simply a tool.

    Maybe you are a little jaded because of how so many of the arguments here seem to go and I agree. It gets tedious and a bit boring to have the same numbers thrown around again and again. No offense intended to the stat-geeks but a lot of them do come off as know-it-alls and that gets very old, very fast. Sometimes it is nice to just enjoy what you see with your eyes without thinking about what Bill James would say. Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just think there can be a pleasant mix of both sides. A nice, refreshing baseball cocktail.

  12. #12
    NYYF Legend

    JeffWeaverFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    NYC

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    GPA is a great stat (it's comparable to OPS) for hitters. IMO, when judging pitchers, the key stats to look up are K/9, K/BB, and G/F. I also like looking at dERA or DIPS when seeing if a pitcher was lucky or unlucky in a season.
    “I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.

  13. #13
    NYYF Legend

    JeffWeaverFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    NYC

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeebot
    Do you have any stat-geek friends that you have been to games with or are you just speculating as to what it would be like? I have just become interested in this end of the game recently but it by no means interferes with that actually watching of a game. As a matter of fact, it never even comes up. When I am watching a game, Jeter is the best SS ever. Bernie still may get a clutch hit. Moose is still going to get a perfecto. You know what I mean.

    I like stats before and after the game. Not during. Evaluate prospects and acquisitions. Predict performance. Suggest outcomes. I do not know a single stat-geek that makes a game seem like a calculus class. In all honesty, I don't even think stats play a part in the game as it is being played. They are simply a tool.

    Maybe you are a little jaded because of how so many of the arguments here seem to go and I agree. It gets tedious and a bit boring to have the same numbers thrown around again and again. No offense intended to the stat-geeks but a lot of them do come off as know-it-alls and that gets very old, very fast. Sometimes it is nice to just enjoy what you see with your eyes without thinking about what Bill James would say. Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just think there can be a pleasant mix of both sides. A nice, refreshing baseball cocktail.
    I agree with everything you just said 100%.

    Speaking of enjoyment of the game, I think that I have lost some enjoyment because of my dislike for Torre's managing. It infuriates me when I think he is making a wrong move. I started thinking about that after watching Rangers games this season and seeing the difference. Either way, I'm going to do my best to not worry about Joe's decisions. At least not during the game.
    “I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.

  14. #14

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeebot
    I like stats before and after the game. Not during. Evaluate prospects and acquisitions. Predict performance. Suggest outcomes. I do not know a single stat-geek that makes a game seem like a calculus class. In all honesty, I don't even think stats play a part in the game as it is being played. They are simply a tool.
    Perfect. You just described how I enjoy the game. During the game I just want to have fun without worrying about how the next at bat will affect the players OBP., GPA, VORP, etc. Before and after I am interested in their stats. Stats are especially interesting during the off-season with all the moves and rumors swirling. So I'm with you.

    I DO have one friend who is a stat geek but the good thing is that after 2 beers he's already tipsy so I make sure he's had them before the game starts.

    You do make some very good and valid points throughout your post (which I truncated a bit).

  15. #15
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Greenwich, CT

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooley Womack
    Perfect. You just described how I enjoy the game. During the game I just want to have fun without worrying about how the next at bat will affect the players OBP., GPA, VORP, etc. Before and after I am interested in their stats. Stats are especially interesting during the off-season with all the moves and rumors swirling. So I'm with you.

    I DO have one friend who is a stat geek but the good thing is that after 2 beers he's already tipsy so I make sure he's had them before the game starts.

    You do make some very good and valid points throughout your post (which I truncated a bit).
    Hey Dooley...if you still have my e-mail knocking around somewhere, drop me a note.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  16. #16

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSoxFan
    Hey Dooley...if you still have my e-mail knocking around somewhere, drop me a note.
    I don't have it available. I believe it's saved in one of my PM's. A lot of good that does us.

    I guess it's safe to say you don't have mine on hand either....

  17. #17
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Greenwich, CT

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooley Womack
    I don't have it available. I believe it's saved in one of my PM's. A lot of good that does us.

    I guess it's safe to say you don't have mine on hand either....
    You could always post yours here.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  18. #18

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSoxFan
    You could always post yours here.
    Fat chance, Kemosabe.

  19. #19
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Long Island

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch
    If, like you said, you don't understand it, how can you knock it?

    It has nothing to do with obsession or memorization, but moreso comprehension.

    Those that are willing to take the time to understand what the numbers mean will be shown another level of baseball knowledge.

    And the reason some people get so up in arms about the statistics, is that people who don't understand them will immediately dismiss and/or ridicule numbers as being "stupid" or the product of"stat-geeks." In the meanwhile, the numbers show definitively, without any room for argument, that the point they are arguing is wrong.
    I'm not knocking the belief that saber is the way to go. But it's also a choice, not a fact, and to say that someone is downright wrong because they look at something another way is, well, wrong. It works the same as a religious belief or a political party you may belong to. There are other views and while you are entitiled to your you do not have the right to tell someone else they are downright wrong. Of course in the few cases where you are being told you are downright wrong then I can see how you want to prove your point by citing your statistics and making them understand your point of view. But that's where it should end.

    I don't dismiss saber as a way to view the game. And I'm sure those who have the motivation to learn all the sats are enjoying themselves. But I don't feel the need to break everything that goes on in baseball down that way. When I look at Jeter bash his face into a chair because he just gave his body up for 1 out and a beautiful catch, I wanna think to myself "He is the f*cking man", not "yeah that was cool but his UZR sucks".
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball:
    CBS: Evil Empire
    Yahoo: Special OPS

  20. #20
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Long Island

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeebot
    Do you have any stat-geek friends that you have been to games with or are you just speculating as to what it would be like? I have just become interested in this end of the game recently but it by no means interferes with that actually watching of a game. As a matter of fact, it never even comes up. When I am watching a game, Jeter is the best SS ever. Bernie still may get a clutch hit. Moose is still going to get a perfecto. You know what I mean.

    I like stats before and after the game. Not during. Evaluate prospects and acquisitions. Predict performance. Suggest outcomes. I do not know a single stat-geek that makes a game seem like a calculus class. In all honesty, I don't even think stats play a part in the game as it is being played. They are simply a tool.

    Maybe you are a little jaded because of how so many of the arguments here seem to go and I agree. It gets tedious and a bit boring to have the same numbers thrown around again and again. No offense intended to the stat-geeks but a lot of them do come off as know-it-alls and that gets very old, very fast. Sometimes it is nice to just enjoy what you see with your eyes without thinking about what Bill James would say. Anyway, sorry for rambling. I just think there can be a pleasant mix of both sides. A nice, refreshing baseball cocktail.
    great post bro. I wish that were the view of all saber people.
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball:
    CBS: Evil Empire
    Yahoo: Special OPS

  21. #21
    NYYF Legend

    Snatch Catch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CA

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23
    I'm not knocking the belief that saber is the way to go. But it's also a choice, not a fact, and to say that someone is downright wrong because they look at something another way is, well, wrong. It works the same as a religious belief or a political party you may belong to. There are other views and while you are entitiled to your you do not have the right to tell someone else they are downright wrong. Of course in the few cases where you are being told you are downright wrong then I can see how you want to prove your point by citing your statistics and making them understand your point of view. But that's where it should end.

    I don't dismiss saber as a way to view the game. And I'm sure those who have the motivation to learn all the sats are enjoying themselves. But I don't feel the need to break everything that goes on in baseball down that way. When I look at Jeter bash his face into a chair because he just gave his body up for 1 out and a beautiful catch, I wanna think to myself "He is the f*cking man", not "yeah that was cool but his UZR sucks".
    I completely understand what you're saying, Steve, and I agree. Although, I don't know any Yankee fan who saw Jeter make his leap into the stands and immediately said "yeah that was cool, but his UZR sucks."

    The thing that is so interesting about in depth statisitics with baseball is that they CAN tell the vast majority of a player's worth. They CAN settle definitively an argument about who is better, or who had the better year. Baseball is a game that is not governed by time, so a player's contributions can be stacked up against one another and evaluated on a relatively level playing field. However, there are still inconsistancies in the comparisons- things like thin air or deep outfield fences playrolls in the numbers, too. One of the major goals of sabermetrics is to level those irregularities so as to determine true worth.

    Saying that Dante Bichette was better than Paul O'Neill in 1996 is a classic example.

    If we were to take the typical numbers that the general public uses, the comparison looks like this:

    [html] AVG HR RBI R SB

    Dante .313 31 141 114 31

    Paulie .302 19 91 89 0
    [/html]

    Now, Bichette should lose right off the bat simply because his name is Dante, but in the interest of fairness, we'll actually let the numbers talk. When using the above numbers, it looks like Bichette in a walk.

    It's not though.

    In fact, it's quite the opposite.

    Here are some numbers that use a more detailed statistical analysis of the data; numbers that seek to compensate for the venues in which the numbers were produced, the value of defense, etc.

    WARP = Wins Above Replacement Player, or how many more wins is player X worth than a guy who is probably going to be among the worst in the league. This includes some defensive evaluation.

    OPS+ = Adjusted OBP + SLG. OPS+ weights the player's OPS against the rest of the league he plays in, as well as compensates for the ballparks in which the numbers were produced.

    RC/27 = How many runs a player with the numbers (OBP, SLG, AVG, SB, CS, etc.) would produce over the course of a full game (27 outs) if he were allowed to bat over and over. This is not weighted or anything- it just goes by the raw numbers.

    EQA = Equivalent average. This is similar to batting average, but factors in walks and a few other things, so as to get a more accurate picture of how valuable a player is. It is crafted to be on the same scale as BA, so .270ish is about average, and .300 is good.

    [html] WARP OPS+ RC/27 EQA

    Dante 4.4 108 6.82 .271

    Paulie 7.4 122 7.03 .309
    [/html]

    Paulie smokes Bichette, and it really isn't even that close. However, looking at the simple numbers that year, it looks like he isn't as good, and probably by a decent margin.

    It is this kind of analysis that makes the game more interesting to fans of statistics. It doesn't take a lot to understand them, just a willingness to actually do so.

    It is also this kind of analysis that will cause people to get really fired up when others argue that Bichette was clearly better because he had a higher BA, more HR, tons more RBI, more runs, and a 31-0 edge in SB. The fact of the matter is, though, that it just is simply not true. Paulie was a better player that year, and by a pretty substantial margin, too.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  22. #22
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Long Island

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    That is an interesting comparision. And I'm quite happy O'Neill comes up looking huge in it.

    There's just too many in depth numbers to look at and baseball is just a hobby of mine. I like watching the Yanks and I like playing on FBL leagues. If I were a GM I suppose those numbers would mean a great deal to me, but I'm not and I don't have the time or motivation to learn them all. Just be a little understanding towards those of us who don't do what you do. And I think that was my and Dooley's point.
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball:
    CBS: Evil Empire
    Yahoo: Special OPS

  23. #23

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Dooley and CTSoxFan:

  24. #24
    NYYF Legend


    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Snatch, can you get us the difference in WARP, OPS+, RC/27 and EQA between A-Rod and Ortiz from this past season?

    Curious to know how that told the story in the MVP race.

  25. #25
    NYYF Legend

    Snatch Catch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CA

    Re: I want to get into sabermetrics

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84
    Snatch, can you get us the difference in WARP, OPS+, RC/27 and EQA between A-Rod and Ortiz from this past season?

    Curious to know how that told the story in the MVP race.

    [html] WARP OPS+ RC/27 EQA

    A-Rod 10.2 167 9.53 .337

    Ortiz 8.0 161 8.90 .323
    [/html]

    This is also without much positional factoring (WARP does it, but it's the only one of the stats listed that does.) A-Rod KILLS Ortiz in numbers like VORP (Measure of strictly OFFENSE in comparison to others that play the same position (Ortiz is compared to other DHs)) and Positional OPS+ (OPS+, but again, factoring in the position that he plays.)

    Additionally, I posted the wrong EqA numbers for Paulie O and Bichette earlier: The proper ones are .295 and .273 respectively.
    Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts