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  1. #1

    Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez


  2. #2

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Ugh. Alex Gonzalez? Are you kidding me?

  3. #3

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


    Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense

  4. #4
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Marte AND Mota for Crisp. I think that right there will tell you Theo doesn't have as much control as sox fans think.


  5. #5

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoSox
    Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


    Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense
    I can understand the Crisp deal - there was no way he could have been obtained without trading one amongst Lester, Papelbon or Marte. But Alex Gonzalez? Factoring in both offense and defense, is he an upgrade over Cora? Or Pedroia (even if he hasn't played a game in the majors)?

  6. #6
    Yankee Stadium: 1923-2008 DiMaggio5CF's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

    At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

    He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

    Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.

  7. #7
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by mik3
    Marte AND Mota for Crisp. I think that right there will tell you Theo doesn't have as much control as sox fans think.
    I don't think thats' the extent of the deal. There are other players involved.

    Even so, while it hurts to part with Marte, they are bringing back Crisp, a young player who is ready to play right NOW (whether or not Marte is ready is open for debate, and the lack of a position for him is indisputable).

    The signing of Alex Gonzalez is the mystery here. While he'll likely be an improvement over Edgar Renteria (not saying much) and Alex Cora (saying even less), the difference is not dramatic enough to justify too many dollars. If Gonzalez signs for a high price or (even worse!) more than one season, I'm not going to love it.

    Loretta...Crisp...Ortiz...Ramirez...Varitek...Nixon...Youkilis...Lowell...Gonzalez. I believe I'd be happy going to war with that lineup. I daresay we won't lose much run production from what we've gotten accustomed to over the past couple of seasons, especially if Lowell makes any kind of a comeback.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  8. #8

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoSox
    Alright! We got Crisp!! Somhow we turned Edgar into an upgrade in CF. Of course thats debatable. But really I am REALLY excited about 06 and beyond. It says it is a multi-player deal so I'm sure the Red Sox are getting more then just Coco for Marte and Mota, so I will wait an see before I really judge the deal but I like it so far.


    Alex Gonzalez? Well ... um ... well.... he can play defense
    Crisp I like but the Red Sox better be damn sure he can play a good CF. His defensive ratings in LF are amazing but CF isn't the same. That and I know you have to give up something good to get something good but giving the Indians who are already stacked with young talent and legit top 10 prospect concerns me, they are already good enough! Plus they get Michaels who quite possibly is an upgrade over Crisp. If he can be had for some bullpen arms as the article indicates, I'd rather the Red Sox just do that. As you say, though, I'll wait and see the entire deal before making a complete judgement.

    But I can say with complete confidence that I hate the Alex Gonzalez signing. He has a reputation as a superb defender but his defensive numbers say otherwise. Starting him is just accepting mediocrity. Can you be a little original? There are a number of internal options that would likely outperform Gonzalez in a starting role. Whatever offense they gained with Crisp over Stern in center would be completely negated by putting black hole Gonzalez in the everyday lineup.

  9. #9
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    i hope the Alex Gon. is like a one year thing. maybe let Pedroia move back to short for 07

  10. #10

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF
    Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

    At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

    He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

    Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.
    Well a Red Sox fan would look at the fact he just turned 26, RAKED on the Road last year. Having an OPS near .900 last year and having good numbers at Fenway also. Switch hitting young and can hit. Pretty freaking good player.

  11. #11
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF
    Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

    At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

    He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

    Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.
    Damon's OBP at age 23: .338. At age 24? .339. The next two seasons, he jumped up to .379 and .382. A player's mid-to-late twenties are largely regarded as his prime years, and it's not at all unusual to see significant leaps in his stats during those years. Surely Crisp, who's 26 next year, is capable of similar improvement, especially if he can use Fenway Park to his advantage.

    By the way, Crisp's OPS+ of 119 last year is actually a baby step up from Damon's 113.

    Welcome to Boston, Coco!
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  12. #12

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Crisp is a good player and a good pick-up for the Sox. Bit on the expensive side, though. Truth be told, I'm glad the Sox didn't hold onto Marte, if for no other reason then that people can stop talking so much about their farm.

    Alex Gonzalez, on the other hand... not so much.

  13. #13

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Coco Crisp is pretty sweet.


  14. #14

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by DiMaggio5CF
    Crisp is a decent player, but not much more.

    At 26, he's primed for a breakout year, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

    He looks like a .300, 15 HR, .345 OBP guy after doing it for two straight years.

    Crisp might be better in the long run because of the age factors, but for right now, I'm glad we have Damon.
    Crisp may not put up eye-popping numbers, but I think you are selling him a bit short.

    He ranked fourth in VORP last year among AL left fielders. He put up a better OPS+ than Damon last year. He is also an excellent defender.

    I don't think he will be a future MVP or anything, but he is more than a 'decent player.'

  15. #15

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSoxFan

    Welcome to Boston, Coco!
    I'm a little unsure regarding the veracity of the report. If the Sox FO were going to leak it, I'd assume they would use the Globe to do so.

    Besides, is it even possible for someone other than Rosenthal to break a story this off-season?

    Btw, regarding Crisp projections, here is a post from SOSH which Eric Van had posted Saturday evening:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bill James: .296 / .348 / .442

    Ron Shandler: .290 / .339 / .468

    However, he'd be moving from the second worst hitter's park in MLB, 2003-5 (tied with RFK and Dodger Stadium) to the fourth best. In particular, playing half your games at the Jake reduces HR for a RHB by 14%, while Fenway gives a 6.5% boost. James' projection of 13 HR becomes 16, Shandler's 20 becomes 25. James projects 34 2B, 4 3B, which becomes 38 2B, 5 3B.

    BA gets a boost (from -2% to +1.5%). Let's see . . .

    Crisp in Fenway, BJ, something like .307 / .358 / .479 (Damon: .292 / .361 / .425)

    (Wow . . . I did that by components, and the 47 point boost in OPS matches my quick-and-dirty rule of thumb for a guy moving from a Run Index of 87 to
    110: (110-87)*2 = 46. Good!)

    RS, something like .300 / .348 / .514 (Damon: .295 / .359 / .429)

    (Well, he's getting a 55 point OPS boost here . . . probably because, with these two parks, power hitters are helped more than OBP guys and Shandler has him as more of a HR guy than James does.)

    He'd be a very potent #6 hitter, allowing Lowell to hit 7 or 8, which would take some pressure off him. With Loretta and Youkilis, I don't see why the new CF has to hit 1 or 2.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  16. #16
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Even if they are getting anything else, it won't be much. It's not like Ryan Howard will be thrown in or something if the Phillies are the third team..


  17. #17

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Pretty clear that Theo's announced rejoining the organization was timed with this deal.

    I'm very happy that the Sox appear to actually be upgrading CF. Far cry from what we have been thinking for the past month.

    I'm sad to see Marte go, though. But Crisp has proven he can produce at the ML level, at a more important position than Marte plays. Here's hoping Crisp contiues to improve upon what he's already shown.

    Alex Gonzalez though, ugh. Just give me Cora.

  18. #18
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by scull567
    But I can say with complete confidence that I hate the Alex Gonzalez signing. He has a reputation as a superb defender but his defensive numbers say otherwise.
    Which defensive numbers in particular?

    Whatever offense they gained with Crisp over Stern in center would be completely negated by putting black hole Gonzalez in the everyday lineup.
    The larger point here, I think, is that Crisp and Gonzalez provide you an overall better lineup than Stern and Cora, the two "incumbents" if this trade & signing don't occur. In general, though, I agree that making the trade and letting Cora play short (in anticipation of Pedroia being ready sometime in the next year or two) might make more sense than the A-Gonz signing.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  19. #19
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?


  20. #20

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by mik3
    Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?
    Did you factor in getting Coco? Who last year put up higher OPS then Damon AT one of the worst hitting Ballparks?

    Lets see what the Red Sox have done so far

    Gotten Younger? Yep
    Better Pitching? Yep
    Better Defense? Yep
    Better Offense? Maybe
    Worse Offense? Possible

    The Offense is still going to score 850 runs and could actually score more then 900 like last year. I just don't see how a team that has improved from last year where they won 95 games isn't going to compete.

  21. #21
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by mik3
    Personally, I wouldn't do this deal. I don't see the Sox as competing this year, so why trade a guy who could be your stud 3b when you're ready to compete again?
    You're basing your conclusion on a premise which the Red Sox FO obviously doesn't share. They are clearly preparing to compete this year.

    And why not? The lineup loses very little run production from last year, the starting rotation (if healthy) is a huge improvement from last year, and the bullpen is also much deeper and better, especially if Foulke returns at anything close to full strength.

    To conclude that the Red Sox won't compete this year assumes multiple failures in multiple players. It's certainly possible, but I think I'd let them actually occur before crying "uncle" on the '06 season.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  22. #22
    The Big Schill CTSoxFan's Avatar
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    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    From the Herald article:
    There was some indication that the Phillies and Indians were hoping to complete the deal for Michaels as soon as last night. Cleveland was believed to be sending one of two relievers - left-hander Arthur Rhodes or right-hander Rafael Betancourt - to the Phillies in exchange for Michaels.
    I wonder if the Phils would have been amenable to taking Mota for Michaels? I prefer Crisp to Michaels, truth be told, but if the options were Mota (or some other reliever) for Michaels vs. Marte AND Mota for Crisp, I'm not so sure.

    I'm also going to feel a little more certain about this when someone besides Tony Massarotti is reporting it.
    "...it was blood, my blood, and it was coming from the sutures in my ankle. You’re either stupid or bitter if you think otherwise." --Curt Schilling on the Bloody Sock, 3/17/07

  23. #23

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    I like the Yankees team right now a little better, but I know one thing -- I sure as hell am not writing off the the Red Sox.

    I think all this "Red Sox are going to not compete next year!" talk is a bit crazy.

    With the addition of Crisp, they now have elite talent in LF, at DH, at catcher and in center. All the guys they have at those positions are one of, if not the best, among their peers in the AL.

    Their bullpen next year could not possibly be worse than it was in 2005.

    I can sit here and hope the Sox will fail miserably next year - and maybe they will - but I am not going to count on it.

  24. #24

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoSox
    Gotten Younger? Yep
    Better Pitching? Yep
    Better Defense? Yep
    Better Offense? Maybe
    Worse Offense? Possible
    This is how I see it as well. Many Yanks fans will jump and say that there are still huge question marks in the rotation (similar to the Yankees), along with our situation at 3B, but with a very solid CF I think many of the holes the Sox had are filled.

    No more criticism of the Sox offseason, IMO. They have made the deals they needed to make, with the possible exception of SS, where I believe they can go cheap until a better solution (Pedroia?) arises.

  25. #25

    Re: Boston Herald: Sox reach deal for CF Crisp; on Verge of signing Alex Gonzalez

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSoxFan
    From the Herald article:
    I wonder if the Phils would have been amenable to taking Mota for Michaels? I prefer Crisp to Michaels, truth be told, but if the options were Mota (or some other reliever) for Michaels vs. Marte AND Mota for Crisp, I'm not so sure.

    I'm also going to feel a little more certain about this when someone besides Tony Massarotti is reporting it.
    And if we are just recieving Crisp. You would think another player would be comign our way.

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