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  1. #1

    Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    It seems that so many of the talks by both fans and sportswriters this off season has been overly focused on the Yanks filling the CF position. I, just like everyone else would LOVE to see the Yank's pickup a decent to premier CF...However at the end of the day all we really need is a decent glove. It was the bullpen all last year that persisted in being the serious problem with the Yankees. Can anyone else remember last year how many games there were when the Yanks would be leading by 5 to 6 runs only to see them win the game by 1 run? Or how about all the games where the Yanks held an early lead only to have the bullpen relinquish it? How hard was it to get a reliever to come in during the ALDS that could retire the Angels 1-2-3? I think that somewhere along the lines both us(the fans), and the media truly lost track of this. Fix our bullpen and we're a better team even WITH Williams being were still the starting CF.

  2. #2

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Agreed

  3. #3
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.

  4. #4
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Vazquez
    Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.
    Actually his post is contradictory, not paradoxical.
    The signature aside, I tend to agree with the post. Getting a "bat" for a CFer is not the priority...it is getting a glove out there and someone with a functioning arm...
    "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."
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  5. #5

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Vazquez
    Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.
    Yes I would have to agree there. Pierre was never a good fit and he will continue to decline. Why would you be so high on Pierre? But I do agree with you that fixing the bullpen and having more quality in the pen rather than quantity(like last year) the Yankees will be a better team even with Williams or Crosby in center. Of course a good CFer like a Jeremy Reed or possibly a Jason Michaels will help make the bullpen better because of improved defense in Center. Also improved defense in right, say Michaels in right and Reed in center would also make the bullpen MUCH better because those are two very good defenders who will run down more balls than any combination of Crosby/Bernie/Sheffield.
    I'm too smooth you'll never see me comin', I'm never in a hurry I'm just movin' fast...

  6. #6

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by NewEraYanks2527
    Yes I would have to agree there. Pierre was never a good fit and he will continue to decline. Why would you be so high on Pierre? But I do agree with you that fixing the bullpen and having more quality in the pen rather than quantity(like last year) the Yankees will be a better team even with Williams or Crosby in center. Of course a good CFer like a Jeremy Reed or possibly a Jason Michaels will help make the bullpen better because of improved defense in Center. Also improved defense in right, say Michaels in right and Reed in center would also make the bullpen MUCH better because those are two very good defenders who will run down more balls than any combination of Crosby/Bernie/Sheffield.
    If the keep walking guys and giving up homers it's not gonna matter if Andruw Jones is our centerfielder. Better defense would not have dramatically improved the results Embree, Felix Rodgriquez, or Proctor, etc..

  7. #7
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    I agree. The pen is the number one thing we still need to work on. While Crosby isn't the answer in CF, he can hold down the fort until we get someone else. The pen, OTOH, is something we need to work on now if we want to win a championship next year.


  8. #8

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    If the keep walking guys and giving up homers it's not gonna matter if Andruw Jones is our centerfielder. Better defense would not have dramatically improved the results Embree, Felix Rodgriquez, or Proctor, etc..
    Did you read my post at all about how they go hand in hand, or did you just look for the fact that I didn't fully agree with you and decided to come out with this rebuttle. No crap it wont matter if our bullpen guys keep walking people who is in the outfield but it will matter if they throw pitches that are put into play between Bernie and Sheffield. Obviously you need guys who can throw strikes and get outs but it doesn't matter if this improved bullpen causes the ball to be put in play and into the outfield where a better CFer could easily run it down.
    I'm too smooth you'll never see me comin', I'm never in a hurry I'm just movin' fast...

  9. #9

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Vazquez
    Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.
    I was stating that 'we' all(that includes myself) have lost track of the more serious issue.

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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact. Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now.

  11. #11
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Wang's Groundballs
    Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact. Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now.

    Why is imporiving the offense a necessity...last time a I checked the Yankees have A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Matsui, Sheffield, and Posada....sounds like a pretty good 1-7 to me, so why does this team NEED an offensive CFer??
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyAndy46
    Why is imporiving the offense a necessity...last time a I checked the Yankees have A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Matsui, Sheffield, and Posada....sounds like a pretty good 1-7 to me, so why does this team NEED an offensive CFer??
    Last I checked the goal is to score more runs than your opponents. Whether you do that by preventing them from scoring runs or by producing more runs yourself doesn't matter as long as you do it. And I never said it was necessary, just that we need more output from CF; this could be from a CF that saves 20 runs with the glove and gives up 10 with the bat, I don't care as long as they help us win games.

  13. #13
    You talkin' to me? DandyAndy46's Avatar
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Wang's Groundballs
    Last I checked the goal is to score more runs than your opponents. Whether you do that by preventing them from scoring runs or by producing more runs yourself doesn't matter as long as you do it. And I never said it was necessary, just that we need more output from CF; this could be from a CF that saves 20 runs with the glove and gives up 10 with the bat, I don't care as long as they help us win games.
    But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
    I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..
    "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyAndy46
    But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
    I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..
    I never said we need one. I said, "Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now."

    All I care about is getting the player that adds the most wins to our team. If he does that by adding more offense, defense, or both I don't really care, just as long as he does it.

  15. #15
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyAndy46
    But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
    I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..
    I dont think the offense can hold a no hit centerfielder.

  16. #16

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by DandyAndy46
    But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
    I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..
    How many runs is enough? To me, "enough" runs is the number of runs that guarantees a championship.

  17. #17
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Wang's Groundballs
    Last I checked the goal is to score more runs than your opponents. Whether you do that by preventing them from scoring runs or by producing more runs yourself doesn't matter as long as you do it. And I never said it was necessary, just that we need more output from CF; this could be from a CF that saves 20 runs with the glove and gives up 10 with the bat, I don't care as long as they help us win games.
    The Rangers score an awful lot of runs. Don't much see them around the playoffs. The reality is that prevention is just as important as scoring runs.

  18. #18

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by mhmajp
    The Rangers score an awful lot of runs. Don't much see them around the playoffs. The reality is that prevention is just as important as scoring runs.
    I agree and a solid Middle relief pitcher can make up for any misplays on a single hit.

    To revisit the example stated earlier in this thread where Brown was pitching against the Rangers after the All Star game last year and had to make 20 extra pitches. You could make the argument that had we gotten one more solid middle relief pitcher then one misplay by a CF doesn't cost us the following game where Wayne Franklin gives up the 2 run homer.

    We can go in circles with this but I would rather have one solid middle reliever to be able to make up for a misplay in the field then worrying about everyday players being absolutely perfect in the field so that it won't effect starting pitching and therefore lead us into a dreadful bullpen situation.

    Edit: spelling

  19. #19
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by mhmajp
    The Rangers score an awful lot of runs. Don't much see them around the playoffs.
    That's partly because of their ballpark. If they played in Yankee Stadium they would probably be a little above average, so their offense isn't that good compared to the teams they play.

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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by mhmajp
    The Rangers score an awful lot of runs. Don't much see them around the playoffs. The reality is that prevention is just as important as scoring runs.
    Yeah, that's exactly what I said. I'm not sure why you chose to quote me...?

  21. #21

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    [QUOTE=Wang's Groundballs]Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact.QUOTE]

    Don't have much of an impact?

    I agree that everyday players naturally have more of an impact on a game as the nature of thier playing time would dictact that, however, relief pitching can cost a team a significant amount of games especially in the playoffs when competition is tighter and many games come down to one at bat, one pitch, one defensive play. It puts a strain on starting pitching to have to constantly worry about having great outings and going longer innings which then tires out our staff and leads to tired arms late season.

    With the amount of slugging power we have on this team I would rather get superior middle relief over a superior CF, if I couldn't have both. If we can get both, great.

  22. #22
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by LongLiveBernie51!

    I agree that everyday players naturally have more of an impact on a game as the nature of thier playing time would dictact that, however, relief pitching can cost a team a significant amount of games especially in the playoffs when competition is tighter and many games come down to one at bat, one pitch, one defensive play. It puts a strain on starting pitching to have to constantly worry about having great outings and going longer innings which then tires out our staff and leads to tired arms late season.

    With the amount of slugging power we have on this team I would rather get superior middle relief over a superior CF, if I couldn't have both. If we can get both, great.
    Giving up runs on defense or offense is just as bad as when a reliever does it. Last year, on offense and defense, Bernie cost us over 20 runs from what an average CF would have. The difference between a horrible middle reliever, lets call him Proctor, Scott, and an average relief pitcher over 50 innings is roughly 8 runs. That's not unimportant, but it's far less important than improving CF is.

  23. #23

    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by Wang's Groundballs
    Giving up runs on defense or offense is just as bad as when a reliever does it. Last year, on offense and defense, Bernie cost us over 20 runs from what an average CF would have. The difference between a horrible middle reliever, lets call him Proctor, Scott, and an average relief pitcher over 50 innings is roughly 8 runs. That's not unimportant, but it's far less important than improving CF is.
    Where did you get this over 20 lost run stat? Over a 162 game span, How many of these 20 or so runs led directly to losses or a lead being blown?

    If a Middle Reliever blows a lead in a game and the offense can't recover the lead then that leads to one loss. How many times did Bernie get balls hit to him that he was unable to make a play on in the course of 1 inning or even stretched out over 1 game that resulted in him singlehandedly blowing leads and costing us a game? How were those balls getting hit to him? I'd assume they weren't lazy fly balls as even Bernie in his broken down condition could still manage to catch those. Was Bernie pitching and playing CF and therefore costing us all these runs?

    In my first post, I was addressing the point of this thread which is that middle relief should be given more importance at this point then CF. There's no doubt that a new CF is needed but I would focus on signing a higher level middle relief pitcher before I would look to get a big name in CF. If it comes down to one or the other then my choice is middle relief. They'll get someone better then the 2005 version of Bernie, even though it may not be the aging big name star that we used to go for back in the not so distant past that would eventually disappoint.

    With Solid Middle relief pitching, we don't have to worry about those crazy hot shots being hit all around CF because guys like Brown, Proctor, Franklin, and occasionally Sturtze and Mussina can't help but toss up beach balls on a bad day or even good day considering the pitcher. It's a shame those Beach Balls are becoming more of a common occurance with the Moose.

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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    Quote Originally Posted by LongLiveBernie51!
    Where did you get this over 20 lost run stat? Over a 162 game span, How many of these 20 or so runs led directly to losses or a lead being blown?
    Using LWTS (First Article) and Zone Rating. The general rule of thumb is that every 10 runs = 1 win. So Bernie was about 2 wins below the average CF. I'm not sure how many led directly to a loss last year, but when you're looking to next season you can't assume that they won't lead to more losses.

    If a Middle Reliever blows a lead in a game and the offense can't recover the lead then that leads to one loss.
    But how is that any worse than never getting a lead either because Bernie let a ball drop in an average CF would have gotten to or by not getting on base when an average CF would have?

    How were those balls getting hit to him? I'd assume they weren't lazy fly balls as even Bernie in his broken down condition could still manage to catch those. Was Bernie pitching and playing CF and therefore costing us all these runs?
    No, it only counts balls that were hit to Bernie's zone while he was on the field. There were all sorts of batted ball types.

  25. #25
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    Re: Centerfield Vs Bullpen

    If they had better middle relief the last two years they would have been in a better position.
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