Hardball Times Final 2005 Win Shares

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Interesting fodder for discussion.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshar...leagueLimit=AL

Top Ten
A Rodriguez NYA 37
2 AL M Ramirez BOS 34
3 AL G Sheffield NYA 33
4 AL M Teixeira TEX 32
5 AL D Ortiz BOS 31
6 AL B Roberts BAL 28
7 AL T Hafner CLE 27
8 AL V Guerrero LAA 27
9 AL M Young TEX 27
10 AL R Sexson 27

In particular, a big to those still lamenting that the Yankees ended up with Sheffield instead of Vlad.

[Huktonfonix]

I'd still rather we had Vlad.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Vlad's shoulder is now cronic just like his back. He will continue to spend significant time on the DL. At the end of 2006, we will have spent less money on a player of equal or greater production and greater durability.

Most importantly, we will be free to pursue a replacement for Sheff while the Angels are locked into a physically deteriorating Vlad for 2007 and 2008. The back end of those long term deals are usually the killer.

[yankeebot]

Vlad's shoulder is now cronic just like his back. He will continue to spend significant time on the DL. At the end of 2006, we will have spent less money on a player of equal or greater production and greater durability.

Most importantly, we will be free to pursue a replacement for Sheff while the Angels are locked into a physically deteriorating Vlad for 2007 and 2008. The back end of those long term deals are usually the killer.

I still would have preferred Vlad given that he is only 29. I am not convinced that the shoulder and back are chronic. But I hope we can resign Sheff as a fulltime DH after next year and promote someone from the farm for RF.

[YankeeFan1]

Vlad's shoulder is now cronic just like his back. He will continue to spend significant time on the DL. At the end of 2006, we will have spent less money on a player of equal or greater production and greater durability.

Most importantly, we will be free to pursue a replacement for Sheff while the Angels are locked into a physically deteriorating Vlad for 2007 and 2008. The back end of those long term deals are usually the killer.

You are simply over stating Vlad's injuries. Vlad has spent significant time on the DL this season after a bad slid. Vlad detriorating? In 2008, Vlad will be 31 or 32 years old. Signing him for that kind of money and years was a steal for the Angels. Even with his "chronic" injuries according you, Vlad's VORP is 70.1 compared to Sheffield's 58.1 this season.

You are acting as if Vlad is just some average player that can be found any where. Where are you going to find a player with "an equal or greater production and greater durability" than Vlad? Which player with his kind of defense and a VORP of 70.1 are the Yankees going to find much cheaper in the off season? With Sheffield becoming a DH over the next year, the Yankees now have to find not just a centerfielder, but also a rightfielder. Vlad would have served the Yankees' future much better.

[Jasbro]

The wins shares breakdown is intriguing.

I have been saying for a couple of weeks that I thought Manny was more valuable than Ortiz. This seems to back that up.

[STNYY]

I have been saying for a couple of weeks that I thought Manny was more valuable than Ortiz. This seems to back that up.

I've been thinking the same thing about Manny for awhile. And given the rest of the Sox lineup - not that they're scrubs, just there is no Matsui or Giambi there - I've often wondered what kind of hitter Ortiz would be if not for Manny.

Manny on deck has to contribute to Ortiz's "clutchness" IMO. Even with his average down, Ortiz is gonna get pitches to hit because of respect for Manny.

[Jasbro]

I've been thinking the same thing about Manny for awhile. And given the rest of the Sox lineup - not that they're scrubs, just there is no Matsui or Giambi there - I've often wondered what kind of hitter Ortiz would be if not for Manny.

Manny on deck has to contribute to Ortiz's "clutchness" IMO. Even with his average down, Ortiz is gonna get pitches to hit because of respect for Manny.

Yep -- and Manny plays the field.

[DontHateOnNumber2]

Yep -- and Manny plays the field.

He does? Oh yeah, I forgot that he gets the occasional fly ball or the foot-in-grass, tumbling, attempting dive that lands him a highlight. Oh well, he usually follows up those bonehead plays with a big hit.

[Jasbro]

He does? Oh yeah, I forgot that he gets the occasional fly ball or the foot-in-grass, tumbling, attempting dive that lands him a highlight. Oh well, he usually follows up those bonehead plays with a big hit.

He is actually leading the league in OF assists this year!

He is no doubt aided by the short LF in Fenway, but it is quite a contribution nonetheless -- at least it is more than that derived from having an equivalent hitter sitting on the bench while the rest of the team is in the field...

[CTSoxFan]

The wins shares breakdown is intriguing.

I have been saying for a couple of weeks that I thought Manny was more valuable than Ortiz. This seems to back that up.

Manny's win shares come out to 33.8, Ortiz to 31.6...and the difference is, indeed, the Fielding Win Shares.

Manny is, indeed, more valuable than Ortiz...if you put a lot of stock in win shares.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I still would have preferred Vlad given that he is only 29. I am not convinced that the shoulder and back are chronic. But I hope we can resign Sheff as a fulltime DH after next year and promote someone from the farm for RF.

so do I,

sheff will be a great DH. I doubt he would care then if he plays the field, I bet he would love just having to bat. I could see him being productive there for another three years after his contract ends.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

You are simply over stating Vlad's injuries. Vlad has spent significant time on the DL this season after a bad slid. Vlad detriorating? In 2008, Vlad will be 31 or 32 years old. Signing him for that kind of money and years was a steal for the Angels. Even with his "chronic" injuries according you, .

After his return from the DL, Vlad was pulled from games twice this season with further shoulder problems. An injury that reoccurs twice in a month might fairly be called cronic.

Yep -- and Manny plays the field.

Anecdotally, he appears to be playing it much better this year.

[Huktonfonix]

Manny leads the league in assists because he's so terrible in the field that runners routinely challenge him. See: Jeter, last weekend.

[CommerceComet]

Manny leads the league in assists because he's so terrible in the field that runners routinely challenge him. See: Jeter, last weekend.

And he plays half his games in Fenway where he has a shorter throw from LF than in a normal ballpark.

[CTSoxFan]

Manny leads the league in assists because he's so terrible in the field that runners routinely challenge him. See: Jeter, last weekend.

By the end of a season in which a fielder led the league in assists, a runner would have to be brain-dead to "challenge" him. (See: Jeter, last weekend.)

For the record, in all the sonnets that have been written to how terrible a fielder Manny is, NONE of them focuses on his arm. It's all about the glove, the footwork, and the exciting show he provides in his attempts to get to balls that are hit in his vicinity.

[BronxBaumer]

I have to agree with you, CTS, it wasnt he smartest move for JNeter to challenge Manny like that, he was out by a mile. Couldn't have seen that one coming...

[CTSoxFan]

I have to agree with you, CTS, it wasnt he smartest move for JNeter to challenge Manny like that, he was out by a mile. Couldn't have seen that one coming...

Yup. Manny may field like he's on rollerblades, but once the ball is actually in his hands, the damage is done. It tends to be all positive from there.

[BronxBaumer]

Or negative if you're in my shoes

[YankeeFan1]

After his return from the DL, Vlad was pulled from games twice this season with further shoulder problems. An injury that reoccurs twice in a month might fairly be called cronic.

Given that all baseball players have lingering injuries of some sort, I think not. When Vlad is unable to actually play for long periods then you can call his injury chronic.

[StaceyRosie]

Manny practically plays the infield in that band box. I'd be a great left fielder too if I played in Fenway.