The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[dmbphan1]

Bedard done for season

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Top 4 payroll teams:
New York Yankees
Boston Red Sox
New York Mets
Los Angeles Angels

All heading to the playoffs if the season were to end now.

Bottom 4 payroll teams
Tampa Bay 26 games out of first
Florida 18.5
Washington 15.5
Pittsburgh 10.5

Every one is hopelessly out of the playoff picture.

Once again, MLB's final standings can be ascertained, at least to some degree, by merely looking at payroll figures before the season even starts.

Professional wrestling has preordained results.
MLB should not. At least not to the degree which now exists. And results should not be based upon payroll and revenue flow.

This argument has been debunked several times on this thread yet it continues to be repeated.

Indeed it has and indeed it does bobby jr., unusually astute observation on your part.

[jeterismyhomeboy]

Bedard done for season

That's really sad. I hope he recovers completely and can come back next year. He's way too good to lose his career to injury.

[#1PaFan]

All I have left to say to Junior is "Cha-Ching!!"

The summer is coming to an end, Junior and each day that goes by, your O's keep losing ground to the Jays.

If the season ended right now, you'd owe this site $24! I hope you are out there mowing some lawns, little fella!!! You're going to owe Jim Frasch some bucks!

BTW, The O's 2007 Payroll is 10th in the Majors at $95,107,807*

The Blue Jays, which are currently 12 wins better than your buddy Peter's team, IN THE SAME DIVISION, are 17th in Payroll in the Majors at $71,915,000.*

How is it possible that the Jays are that far ahead of The Peter's O's? That have a much lower payroll than the O's AND they are in the same division as those evil Yankees and Red Sox.

Well, hopefully you keep your word and honor our bet at the end of the season, Junior. Just consider your money paid to this site as yet another lesson. Hopefully, one day, you will GET IT!

But I doubt it.

*http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158

Outside of the Red Sox, the Orioles added the most in payroll this year with an additional $22.5M. Their $95M 2007 payroll puts the Orioles at #10 on the list.

[YASS]

IIRC, George Steinbrenner operated the Yankees at a loss for several years (does he still?) in order to spend at a level likely to bring home a championship. He didn't always have the YES revenues to compensate, either.

Does Angelos do that?

[cupcollector99]

Bedard done for season

Stinks for him He seemed like a good guy too. Hopefully for Baltimore, he'll be ready to play next season. The rest of the team just took the weekend off too.
If only there was a salary cap, the the Orioles would be quitting in a more equitable economic environment. Maybe f they charged Boston instead of giving it up for free, they could use some of that money to invest in players or another house for St Peter.

[Toaderly]

IIRC, George Steinbrenner operated the Yankees at a loss for several years (does he still?) in order to spend at a level likely to bring home a championship. He didn't always have the YES revenues to compensate, either.

According to Forbes.com, the Yankees have been operating at a loss for the last four years:



http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/...es_334613.html

[yanksphan]

According to Forbes.com, the Yankees have been operating at a loss for the last four years:



http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/...es_334613.html

A-Rod's fault.

[Yankees Empire]

*http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158

Very educational list.

I love that in the standings, the White Sox (#4) are badly trailing the Indians (#23), the Tigers (#9). The Twins (#19), and, of ALL people, the Royals (#22). Interesting to note that the Royals are out-spending the Indians.

Gotta love that the Diamondbacks (#26), the Rockies (#25), and Padres (#24) are leading or are neck-and-neck with the Dodgers (#6). It's also interesting that the three teams in this division with payroll levels in the bottom portion of the list are BURYING their divisional mates, the Giants (#11).

I love that Milwaukee (#18) is right there in the battle for the N.L. Central with the Cubs (#8).

But the best one is the fact that Toronto (#17) is opening up a good chunk of distance between themselves and our good little friends, the Orioles (#10).

Right, right, right, I forgot. These are "exceptions." The fact that this phenomenon occurs every year and with a similar number of teams every year doesn't matter.

For the record and for about the 134th time, I'll again state that I've never said that money doesn't help but if your front-office and ownership groups are staffed with guys whose brains are made out of ricotta cheese, you're going to lose, quite frequently to teams with samller payrolls.

[cupcollector99]

Not only does the team give up for the season but the fans did too. There was at least two banners up declaring Camden Yards "Fenway South".. What a disgrace. I guess charging more for tickets to the weekend games with rivals really makes sense. They're able to attract the people with money to spend while keeping the regular average Orioles fan away from the park.
That's what i call a real fan friendly move by the front office.

[bobby jr]

Way to cherry pick bobby. You convieniently stopped at top/bottom 4. Lets look at top/bottom 5. That would include CHW and ARI. Wait at team with a $100 million plus payroll in last place of their division and a team with only $52 million at the top of their division.

How about we look at bottom 10. Well that includes SD 1 gm back of ARI and CLE who leads their division.

There is more and more indication that fans in Baltimore, Toronto, and Tampa Bay are starting to reject the present system which is fatally flawed. And which dooms our teams to fighting for the scraps, a long shot chance at a wild card. On the other hand the Yankees, the team which has the highest payroll, are perpetually in the post season. 12 years in a row, going on 13. And Boston their payroll is skyrocketing, number two in MLB and they have dominated the AL East this year as a result.

Under the present economic system in MLB, the Yankees may never miss the playoffs. And even if they do barely miss it one year, they will be close, they will have a winning record, and they will be back in the next year.

When I read MLB forums in Tampa, Baltimore, and Toronto, I see more and more talk about the need for a salary cap in MLB. Such talk was just not there a couple of years ago. Also attendance and enthusiasm is way down in Baltimore and Toronto compared to the old days when our teams contended. As for Tampa Bay, their team has never contended and they have never had a chance to develop their potential for a large fan base.

[bobby jr]

Stinks for him He seemed like a good guy too. Hopefully for Baltimore, he'll be ready to play next season. The rest of the team just took the weekend off too.
If only there was a salary cap, the the Orioles would be quitting in a more equitable economic environment. Maybe f they charged Boston instead of giving it up for free, they could use some of that money to invest in players or another house for St Peter.

The O's have been snakebit this year. All the 1 run losses, injuries to Lowen, Ray, now Bedard. Anyway the angry O's have risen up and are leading Boston 11-4 in the 9th. The team has not collapsed, just a bad slump. I think they can still finish the year strong. ( Number1PA fan, I'll still owe money but not as much as you calulated now, the O's will chop into that lead Toronto has over us before the end of the year. )

[shotz]

nice win BALTIMORE!!!!!!

[gold23]

According to Forbes.com, the Yankees have been operating at a loss for the last four years:



http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/...es_334613.html

This is a bit "smoke and mirrors" though. The Yanks bury money in YES and other entitities, legally and astutely hiding at least some money from the other MLB clubs. The actual NY Yankee baseball club has likely lost money, but the conglomerate has not.

That being said, they still are always amongst the top one or two in terms of percentage spent in relation to actual revenues.

[Toaderly]

A-Rod's fault.

It appears he's trying to make it even worse for the Yankees for the next five to eight years.

[jeterismyhomeboy]

This is a bit "smoke and mirrors" though. The Yanks bury money in YES and other entitities, legally and astutely hiding at least some money from the other MLB clubs. The actual NY Yankee baseball club has likely lost money, but the conglomerate has not.

That being said, they still are always amongst the top one or two in terms of percentage spent in relation to actual revenues.

Very true. Forbes also valued the Yankees Corporation at over 1 billion dollars. With the construction of a new stadium, a pass on the luxury tax (for a little while) and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars, the Yankees aren't actually in the red.

[Lucen]

I'd like to point out that the O's, being the 10th highest payroll in baseball are only 2.5 games better than the lowest payroll team in the majors... the Devil Rays. It's not at all a stretch to suggest they may even finish behind them.

If payroll is such a driving factor in regular season success, how can a team with a 24 million dollar payroll be essentially as good as a team with a 95 million dollar payroll? Shouldn't having a 400% higher payroll equate to about 4 times as many wins? Or at the least twice as many? 10 more even?

It's funny that you were so sure the O's would finish 10 ahead of Toronto and they won't even finish that far ahead of the DRays.

It's also interesting that there isn't a single team in the entire major leagues with less wins than Baltimore right now, aside from Tampa Bay. So, having a higher payroll than 20 teams, by your logic, should have led to more wins than 20 teams, right? Even allowing for some variation due to the unexpected, wouldn't you be able to reasonably expect that the O's would have more wins than 15 of those teams? Maybe 10? But 1?

I think it's time for you to step up to the plate and finally admit that the Orioles' problems are due more to poor management than anything the Red Sox or Yankees have done.

[YankeePride1967]

I'm beginning to think that Bobby has automated responses that he just submits at random on his computer. Because his responses generally have nothing to do with the thread he replies to.

[yanksphan]

I'm beginning to think that Bobby has automated responses that he just submits at random on his computer. Because his responses generally have nothing to do with the thread he replies to.

I was thinking the same thing.

[#1PaFan]

I think it's time for you to step up to the plate and finally admit that the Orioles' problems are due more to poor management than anything the Red Sox or Yankees have done.

I'd like to see that too, but it will NEVER happen.

[bobby jr]

I'd like to point out that the O's, being the 10th highest payroll in baseball are only 2.5 games better than the lowest payroll team in the majors... the Devil Rays. It's not at all a stretch to suggest they may even finish behind them.

If payroll is such a driving factor in regular season success, how can a team with a 24 million dollar payroll be essentially as good as a team with a 95 million dollar payroll? Shouldn't having a 400% higher payroll equate to about 4 times as many wins? Or at the least twice as many? 10 more even?

It's funny that you were so sure the O's would finish 10 ahead of Toronto and they won't even finish that far ahead of the DRays.

It's also interesting that there isn't a single team in the entire major leagues with less wins than Baltimore right now, aside from Tampa Bay. So, having a higher payroll than 20 teams, by your logic, should have led to more wins than 20 teams, right? Even allowing for some variation due to the unexpected, wouldn't you be able to reasonably expect that the O's would have more wins than 15 of those teams? Maybe 10? But 1?

I think it's time for you to step up to the plate and finally admit that the Orioles' problems are due more to poor management than anything the Red Sox or Yankees have done.

The positive correlation between winning percentage and payroll is a mathematical certainty, not really open to debate.
A link to a statistical analyis was posted to this study by Why Not a month or so ago.

Let me put it this way. The Orioles could obtain the best possible owner, the best possible GM, and the best scouting system. And we would still be at a disadvantage to the Yankees, who have more than twice as much money to spend each year, based upon revenue flow. And the Red Sox are spending 50% more than the O's so the O's would still be at a disadvantage to them.

The importance of payroll cannot be overestimated. Frankly, any team with as much of a payroll advantage as the Yankees have should never miss the playoffs. And they haven't for 12 straight years, going on 13.

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

[girardi08]

Let me put it this way. The Orioles could obtain the best possible owner, the best possible GM, and the best scouting system. And we would still be at a disadvantage to the Yankees, who have more than twice as much money to spend each year, based upon revenue flow. And the Red Sox are spending 50% more than the O's so the O's would still be at a disadvantage to them.

Not true at all. If the Orioles ran their baseball operations as good as or better than the Red Sox or Yankees, they would not be at a disadvantage to either team. And let's not forget that the Orioles have their MASN deal and aren't in a small market, they could afford to spend more than they are now. They aren't a small market team by any stretch of the imagination.

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

Am I missing something? If the Orioles don't make the right personnel decisions (they haven't for the last ten years), it doesn't matter if there is a salary cap, the Orioles will still languish in obscurity.

[bobby jr]

Not true at all. If the Orioles ran their baseball operations as good as or better than the Red Sox or Yankees, they would not be at a disadvantage to either team. And let's not forget that the Orioles have their MASN deal and aren't in a small market, they could afford to spend more than they are now. They aren't a small market team by any stretch of the imagination.


Am I missing something? If the Orioles don't make the right personnel decisions (they haven't for the last ten years), it doesn't matter if there is a salary cap, the Orioles will still languish in obscurity.

They would be at a disadvantage because the Yanks and Red Sox would have more money to attract free agents and also keep their own players from becoming free agents and jumping ship. Also to help attract international stars, etc.

I don't think the O's have the money to spend the Red Sox and Yankees do, even with the MASN deal. Although there is no way to know for certain unless all the teams open their books which is not likely to occur.

It is true that the Os would have to make better personnel decisions if there was a salary cap. But before I worry about that , I think a cap or greater revenue sharing is the number one objective, because without that the situation for the O's, Toronto, and Tampa Bay in the AL East is almost hopeless, for making the playoffs.

[Lucen]

The positive correlation between winning percentage and payroll is a mathematical certainty, not really open to debate.
A link to a statistical analyis was posted to this study by Why Not a month or so ago.

Let me put it this way. The Orioles could obtain the best possible owner, the best possible GM, and the best scouting system. And we would still be at a disadvantage to the Yankees, who have more than twice as much money to spend each year, based upon revenue flow. And the Red Sox are spending 50% more than the O's so the O's would still be at a disadvantage to them.

The importance of payroll cannot be overestimated. Frankly, any team with as much of a payroll advantage as the Yankees have should never miss the playoffs. And they haven't for 12 straight years, going on 13.

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

I don't think anyone disagrees that more money = an advantage. What people disagree with is your assertion that THIS is the Orioles problem, when clearly it's due to an inept management group. The Orioles are arguably the worst team in the majors, yet they have a higher payroll than 20 other teams. Money hasn't helped them.

You need to face the fact that your owner and his staff are horrible at running a baseball franchise.

[MaineSoxFan]

The positive correlation between winning percentage and payroll is a mathematical certainty, not really open to debate.
A link to a statistical analyis was posted to this study by Why Not a month or so ago.

Let me put it this way. The Orioles could obtain the best possible owner, the best possible GM, and the best scouting system. And we would still be at a disadvantage to the Yankees, who have more than twice as much money to spend each year, based upon revenue flow. And the Red Sox are spending 50% more than the O's so the O's would still be at a disadvantage to them.

The importance of payroll cannot be overestimated. Frankly, any team with as much of a payroll advantage as the Yankees have should never miss the playoffs. And they haven't for 12 straight years, going on 13.

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

You didn't respond directly to Lucen at all. Why are the Orioles so bad with a 95 million dollar payroll if a higher payroll correlates directly to winning percentage?