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02-20-06 11:21 PM #276
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
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02-20-06 11:37 PM #277
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- Nov 2004
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
Why is that different than putting a theoretical team in Jersey, which also has a large number of people? At least Jersey doesn't have a distinct history of NOT supporting baseball.
The first Senators left becasue a) Calvin Griffith was afraid the city was getting "too black" and b) he was hte landlord at Griffith Stadium and would have been a tenant at DC Stadium. The second Senators (as I was told by one of their players) left becasue Short had a pre-arranged deal to get a team for Dallas-Fort Worth. Whatever team he bought was moving there.
BTW, the Rangers' attendance in Texas the first three years was roughly the saem as that of the Senators teh last year. It was only when the team got good that attendance in Texas spiked up. The same thing would have happened in DC with the same team.
DC and Baltimore are most assuredly NOT completely seperate towns.
I share your opinion of RFK, but we're both baseball fans who care enough to waste our time on debates like this. I suspect we'd both enjoy baseball games regardless of where they are played. But not everyone is like you and me in that regard.
Why would you expect a new ballpark in DC to sell out for many years?
An improved neighborhood.
Washington has demonstrated its support for this team, and the Nationals shoudl be in contention when they move in.
They're spending over $600 million. It's going to be a very nice park.
Washington gets a lot of tourists, many of whom have never seen a major-league game.
The Nationals have not really been promoted. When a new owner takes over, promotion will burst into the city's consciousness.
There is every reason to expect the new park to be a jewel that draws for several years.
BTW, much as I hate corporate names for parks, I ahve the perfect one for DC. Since the park is being built right by the Old Navy yard, they sould get Old Navy to sponsor. Then the ballpark too can be the Old Navy Yard.
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02-21-06 02:04 AM #278
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- All-Star second baseman Brian Roberts could miss the Baltimore Orioles' season opener because of the elbow injury that cut short his finest season in the major leagues five months ago."My ultimate goal is still to play Opening Day. That's what I'd like to do. Still, we don't know for sure what it's going to be, at this point," Roberts said Monday. "If I play Opening Day, it would be awesome, but if it happens to be two weeks later, I understand that you have to do what's right. Injuries are a part of it, unfortunately."
Roberts is "very positive and very excited" about the progress he's made over the past month but has no intention of doing anything foolish just to be ready to face Tampa Bay in the April 3 opener at Camden Yards.
"It's still early, and you don't want to go out there and kill yourself," he said. "There comes a point where you have to go out there and do what it takes to get ready. It's a fine line, figuring out how much you need to do and how much you can't do at the time."
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02-21-06 02:42 AM #279
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Quangormo
BTW, I've seen NJ fans going to Ranger games, so it me, it's not automatic that a new team will affect fan allegiance. I still stand firm that historic teams will have great fan loyalty, and that no US Census poll was ever offered to myself asking me which baseball and/or other sports team I've ever rooted for, which someone else mentioned.
As to vetoing it, if it were right across the water in, say, Jersey City somewhere, they may have veto power. If this were placed in Ft Lee, which is on the other side of the GW Bridge, I'd think they'd have veto power. However, if it's way up in Trenton somewhere, they may have less. I think that the proximity to NY would have something to do with it.
It would be a waste putting it in CT, since you've got Yankee and Red Sox fans there, and that would create issues as to whether the team would even get fans. Too many from either team, or not enough would be a major question and risk.
I'm not sure how the "veto" thing works, but I'd imagine that between Stein and Wilpon, some "pull" as voters would be allowed.
Still, I don't see why one area--NYC--should have to support three (3) MLB teams, whereas another area only has to support one (1) MLB team. From the comments above, it takes about 3 hrs to get from VA to Camden Yards in rush hour. It takes just over an hour to get from parts of NJ to Yankee Stadium, so we're not really underserving anybody.
In fact, if I went from Newark, NJ to Madison Sq Garden at 33rd & 8th, it would take 15 mins using an NJ Transit train. From there, I could be at Yankee Stadium in less than 30 minutes travel time (barring any subway delays) if I took the A to 59th, then switched to the D.
From CT, you can get to parts of the Bronx using Metro-North, or go to Grand Central, then take the #4 to Yankee Stadium.
Still, the Yanks aren't to me "underserving the tri-state area re public transportation. I'm not sure how it is getting from DC/VA or parts of MD to Camden Yards, but they need to take care of their own business before complaining about another team taking away part of their market when that part of their market wasn't even able to get there.Dr King (1929-68): Make the Dream a Reality.
RIP, Nelson Mandela, Jackie #42 & Rosa Parks; Ali: Get up…get up; Isaac Hayes; Stevie Wonder: Isn't She Lovely?; Dr J: Fear the 'Fro; Smokin' Joe
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02-21-06 09:20 AM #280
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- Jan 2006
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- Charles Town, W.Va.
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee
I would guess that many of the fans going to Baltimore from Northern Virginia go to weekend games almost exclusively, when traffic is reasonable. Folks tend to make a day of it, going to the Inner Harbor for lunch, dinner or drinks before going to the game.
The thing is, it's not real easy to get to RFK from parts of Northern Va. either. In general terms, jobs and population are exploding westward, into Western Fairfax and Loudoun Counties. Someone mentioned above that Loudoun is the fastest growing county in the U.S. (They are actually opening a new high school EVERY year). The trip from the Vienna Metro station (the westernmost station) to RFK takes a little bit more than an hour, driving from Sterling to Vienna might take just as long. For some folks, driving to Baltimore might be just as easy.
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02-21-06 09:43 AM #281
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- Mar 2002
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
I would guess that many of the fans going to Baltimore from Northern Virginia go to weekend games almost exclusively, when traffic is reasonable. Folks tend to make a day of it, going to the Inner Harbor for lunch, dinner or drinks before going to the game.
The thing is, it's not real easy to get to RFK from parts of Northern Va. either. In general terms, jobs and population are exploding westward, into Western Fairfax and Loudoun Counties. Someone mentioned above that Loudoun is the fastest growing county in the U.S. (They are actually opening a new high school EVERY year). The trip from the Vienna Metro station (the westernmost station) to RFK takes a little bit more than an hour, driving from Sterling to Vienna might take just as long. For some folks, driving to Baltimore might be just as easy.
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02-21-06 10:25 AM #282
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
I can't deny the growth of the DC area. I just don't think those people in Loudoun and Fairfax are going to go to games that often. I guess it's just a hunch but I do know the area well and have a pretty good feel for the attitudes of people who live there. I lived in Annandale, Fairfax and Chantilly for about 10 years and as the western suburbs grew I and the people I know found themselves going into DC less and less often. It's just too hard and rarely worth the hassle. I just don't think those people are going to pack up the family and go to Southeast D.C. on a regular basis.
Driving up to Baltimore for a Sunday game can be a day-long excursion. That's not the case at RFK, you go there, watch the game, leave.
Now, if the Anacostia waterfront becomes a real destination in the future....a place people want to spend time instead of a place people instinctively fear, the new ballpark there could pull people from the suburbs. It COULD be part of an MCI Center-like boom. But knowing the way D.C. government works, I wouldn't expect them to pull it off. I still think the ballpark is 50-50.
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02-21-06 11:07 AM #283
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
What about by public transportation? I've mentioned NJ Transit, Metro-North. There are tons of ways that NJ, Brooklyn, LI & NJ fans can get to YS-II. I could likely get to YS-II faster from Newark Penn Station (it's a "superstation" of Amtrak, NJ Transit, PATH and various buses) than from Staten Island, which is in NYC.
I would presume that if I'd worked somewhere in Hartford, CT, Great Neck in LI, Newark, NJ, I could get to a ballgame within 1.5 hrs or so. How's the public transportation from VA, DC, and parts of MD that aren't close to Baltimore?
I'm not sure of the transit times from Trenton, NJ, which NJ Transit services, but I'd like to believe you can get there well within 2.5 hrs from there to Yankee Stadium if you were to transfer using NYCTA once you hit Manhattan.Dr King (1929-68): Make the Dream a Reality.
RIP, Nelson Mandela, Jackie #42 & Rosa Parks; Ali: Get up…get up; Isaac Hayes; Stevie Wonder: Isn't She Lovely?; Dr J: Fear the 'Fro; Smokin' Joe
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02-21-06 12:00 PM #284
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- Mar 2002
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
The D.C. government aside, do you really think savvy developers are going to let the rejuvenation of the Southeast Waterfront pass them by? Just the thought of the stadium there made the land triple in value. It will happen no matter how stupid MLB and the D.C. Council are.
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02-21-06 01:08 PM #285
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- Jan 2006
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- Charles Town, W.Va.
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
The real boom in the DC area is west of the city. Those people are increasingly working along the Dulles corridor and don't go into DC if they don't have to. Those who work in DC are waking up at 5 a.m. to drive or take the train into DC, so they aren't going to weeknight games, no matter how simple the trip is.
What it comes down to is that I don't think the folks DC is counting on the support the team will, in fact, support the team.
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02-21-06 01:50 PM #286
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- Mar 2002
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
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02-21-06 03:22 PM #287
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
"DC area" fans make up an estimated 25% of Orioles attendance, an arguable number I admit. The people that the Orioles have counted on to attend one or two Orioles games a year are being counted on to buy Nats season tickets, or at least go to games more regularly. I don't think they will, largely because of 2005's attendance numbers.
I just don't think DC fans are going to stick with the Nats long-term. Once the novelty wears off (and I think it already has) attendance is going to drop.
Why would someone 30 mins .......... because people in the Balmer area have grown up Orioles fans. People around DC (a higher proportion of which have no connection to the area) are going to have to decide to become Nats fans. The 2005 numbers lead me to believe it isn't going to happen.
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02-21-06 03:40 PM #288
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- Mar 2002
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
You can wishful think the death of the Nats but a new stadium and a legit owner with money will guarantee monster attendance figures. I have every reason to believe the baseball area will become MCI Center/China Town part 2.
You do understand that there needs to be a team in order for someone to grow up a fan. There are thousands of people who were not baseball fans who became one with the Nats. I also really get annoyed when people act like everyone in the D.C. area is from somewhere else. Almost everyone I grew up with is still here. More than most towns.
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02-21-06 04:13 PM #289
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
New teams have seen their highest attendance in their first season followed by a predictable dropoff. Why would D.C. be different?
The Nats were in first place for much of their first season, much better than any expansion team could hope for. Yet they drew fewer fans than any recent team in its inaugural season besides Tampa Bay.
Attendance figures suggest support for the Nats is lukewarm, history suggests it is all downhill from here.
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02-21-06 04:32 PM #290
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- Mar 2002
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
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02-22-06 09:10 AM #291
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.
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02-22-06 09:28 AM #292
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
But if a person had even a faint, passing interest in sports, they knew the Nationals existed and how to get tickets last year. If a fan didn't get worked up and excited enough to buy tickets last year, they probably aren't going to.
Unless the Nats put together a playoff team in 2006, attendance will go down until the new ballpark is open.
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02-22-06 09:55 AM #293
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.
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02-22-06 09:58 AM #294
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
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02-22-06 11:26 AM #295
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by YankyDave
We'll just have to see whether the Nats thrive. I think they'll survive, assuming a new park is built. But it sure seems like there are lot of excuses being thrown around for why Washington's support was lukewarm its first year.
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02-22-06 12:56 PM #296
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
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02-22-06 01:23 PM #297
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk
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02-22-06 02:00 PM #298
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.
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02-22-06 02:19 PM #299
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Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
I just don't think the Nats' relatively low first-year attendance can be blamed on the lack of marketing. The team's arrival was a huge story, you would almost have to be TRYING to avoid hearing about the Nats to not know about them. I think the problem is indifference.
I know marketing will help prolong whatever honeymoon effect the team has. But in the end I don't think it will have a substantial effect.
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02-22-06 02:39 PM #300
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- Arlington, Va
Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over
Originally Posted by Why Not?
Again, once there is a REAL owner in place and an assurance that the team will remain in D.C. there will be a bump in ticket sales. We're starting the second spring training and still the team is run by Bud and the boys and the D.C. Council has to go into the wee hours of the morning to approve a modified stadium deal. Give me an owner and give me a stadium and I will give you a top 5-10 team in attendance for years.
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