The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Little Big Sheff]

Bro, let me introduce you to Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright...

The Yankees payroll is a HUGE advantage.

Replaced by Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, and Al Leiter, three pitchers so expensive that no other team could pick them up, you are right.

[chanman7483]

BTW, by the time roberts got injured, the season had been oover for the O's for many months...

[jimmyclark]

How much money does Angelos get from his stadium, his share of the Attorney General's tobacco settlement ($1 billion) and money from the Nationals for invading his territory (did the Senators get any money when the St Louis Browns moved to Baltimore 50 years ago??). Meanwhile Billy Beane has 7 years in a row averaging 90 wins.
Angelos has spent money of Lopez and Tejada. But he and his kids think they know it all and smart front office people won't work for him. Why did he fire Davey Johnson..because he had fined players give their money to a charity Mrs Johnson ran? How stupid was that??

[Espinosa's Glasses]

And after all of that... Still not worried

[StaceyRosie]

Peter Angelos complaining that he can't compete with other teams' payroll? The problem isn't money, the problem is spending it on sh*theads like Sammy Sosa and Sidney Ponson. Twice.

The most formidable obstacle to O's success can be found in Angelos' mirror.

Albert Belle says hi.

I just had to quote you guys. Because you're all right "on the money"

[Archer1979]

Hold on a sec.

Let me run this through my BS to English translator...

"There is a formidable challenge because of the size of their payrolls," Angelos said about the Yankees and Red Sox. "We would like to compete with them. We lost a couple of very close games to Boston and New York this week, and I think if we would have had our first-rate second baseman [Brian Roberts], 40 percent of those games would have been a victory, or perhaps even higher...

The Orioles are expected to be active in free agency and Angelos said he does not foresee trouble acquiring attractive free agents. In the past few years, Baltimore has been passed over by premium players for more fruitful contract offers, while others have noted the Orioles' lack of recent success and also the unenviable task of overcoming Boston and New York.

"We appreciate the fans' support [during the tough times]," he said. "And we're going to demonstrate our appreciation by winning. I have never heard of a player who refused to come to Baltimore to play when he's been offered a competitive contract. Baltimore is a great baseball town, with great fans, a beautiful ballpark and a good organization. We will get the players necessary to be successful."

Here goes:

"Wait 'til next year."

[Saxmania]

Of course Angelos has to spend money to get the players to be successful. What is the alternative, to stand on principle and challenge KC for the worst record in the AL? He is simply fighting fire with fire.

Actually, he's fighting fire with marshmallows.

But Peter Angelos would prefer a level playing field. He has said as much in the past, "Let's have total revenue sharing then see where the Yankees and Orioles finish", or words to that effect. Angelos knows the Yankees payroll (currently about 3 times that of the O's) is a huge advantage.

Which is why throwing money at aging, expensive veterans just might not be the solution. Instead, it might be a good idea to build from within, like Minnesota and Cleveland and Oakland have done. Those teams can compete with New York and Boston despite much lower payrolls, because they avoid paying ineffective players just to appear to be competing. Instead, they bite the bullet and rebuild.

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Now, I'll agree that when New York and Boston make payroll mistakes, it's easier for them to escape them. All the more reason to try something different, rather than emulating their strategy! If you pitch to a hitter who keeps homering off your fastball, you can either keep pumping fastballs in there and whine about the matchup being unfair and tell the umpire to raise the mound - or you can try a different pitch.

Myself, I would prefer a NFL style salary cap. Really this is inevitable, as the big market-money teams continue to dominate, the small market owners are growing more and more unhappy. They are the growing majority of the owners, and either this upcoming contract or the next one, baseball will be shut down until the salary cap is imposed.

This is simply factually untrue:

1) The period following free agency has seen the greatest parity in MLB's history. Fact.

2) This year has seen a high level of competition in almost every division. In the AL in particular, New York and Boston have looked very beatable, and there's a good chance that Cleveland, Chicago, and Anaheim will all have better records than them. Oakland and Minnesota were also popular picks for division titles. Go figure. In the NL, check out the Brewers and the Nationals. Not bad, huh?

3) There's already been indications that the current CBA will be re-upped as is when it expires - apparently, owners are very happy with the deal. I'll bet the Nationals sell for a lot. Small-market owners aren't getting more unhappy. In fact, with attendance up around the league, and neither the Yankees or the Red Sox blowing away the competition, I bet they're delighted.

Bobby, if small-market owners can't compete, why aren't their franchises for sale? Why do they keep going instead of selling to a Roman Abramovich who'll explode the payroll? Because they know that smart beats rich, every time - and that New York and Boston haven't been very smart this year.

But getting back on topic, as an Oriole fans I am relieved that Angelos has chosen this time in Orioles history to speak out in this manner, to reassure the fans, to promise that better times are coming starting next year. He would not have said what he did, then let the Orioles go down the tubes in 2006.

But he did last year. And the year before. And the year before . . . bobby, what will it take to convince you that Angelos is one of the worst owners in the game today? Hell, even Pohlad's cack-handed management resulted in a few playoff berths for the Twins, plus some great young pitchers in Santana, Liriano, and Silva. With Selig out of the Brewers, Angelos may just be the worst owner in baseball.

Seriously, I want a quantitative form of measurement. How much worse do the Orioles have to get before you admit that Angelos is the problem, not the solution?

His words are so strong, so clear, that Peter Angelos has put his reputation on the line here. The Orioles will be a vastly improved team next year.

Peter Angelos' reputation? Yes, I've got that on a shelf here next to Paris Hilton's dignity, Michael Jackson's respectability, and Michael Brown's expertise. Angelos wants seats filled and customers billed - winning baseball doesn't factor in to it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[CTSoxFan]

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Saxmania, two thumbs way up for everything you wrote. And to expand on the above a little bit, that rebuilding process you've referenced has included not only good drafting, but deft trading (cf. the Indians practically re-creating their minor league system from scratch with the Bartolo Colon trade, and the A's decision to deal Mulder and Hudson a year early instead of a year too late). Both of those deals made the A's and Indians contenders this year, and set them up nicely for the next decade or so.

[bobby jr]

Actually, he's fighting fire with marshmallows.



Which is why throwing money at aging, expensive veterans just might not be the solution. Instead, it might be a good idea to build from within, like Minnesota and Cleveland and Oakland have done. Those teams can compete with New York and Boston despite much lower payrolls, because they avoid paying ineffective players just to appear to be competing. Instead, they bite the bullet and rebuild.

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Now, I'll agree that when New York and Boston make payroll mistakes, it's easier for them to escape them. All the more reason to try something different, rather than emulating their strategy! If you pitch to a hitter who keeps homering off your fastball, you can either keep pumping fastballs in there and whine about the matchup being unfair and tell the umpire to raise the mound - or you can try a different pitch.



This is simply factually untrue:

1) The period following free agency has seen the greatest parity in MLB's history. Fact.

2) This year has seen a high level of competition in almost every division. In the AL in particular, New York and Boston have looked very beatable, and there's a good chance that Cleveland, Chicago, and Anaheim will all have better records than them. Oakland and Minnesota were also popular picks for division titles. Go figure. In the NL, check out the Brewers and the Nationals. Not bad, huh?

3) There's already been indications that the current CBA will be re-upped as is when it expires - apparently, owners are very happy with the deal. I'll bet the Nationals sell for a lot. Small-market owners aren't getting more unhappy. In fact, with attendance up around the league, and neither the Yankees or the Red Sox blowing away the competition, I bet they're delighted.

Bobby, if small-market owners can't compete, why aren't their franchises for sale? Why do they keep going instead of selling to a Roman Abramovich who'll explode the payroll? Because they know that smart beats rich, every time - and that New York and Boston haven't been very smart this year.



But he did last year. And the year before. And the year before . . . bobby, what will it take to convince you that Angelos is one of the worst owners in the game today? Hell, even Pohlad's cack-handed management resulted in a few playoff berths for the Twins, plus some great young pitchers in Santana, Liriano, and Silva. With Selig out of the Brewers, Angelos may just be the worst owner in baseball.

Seriously, I want a quantitative form of measurement. How much worse do the Orioles have to get before you admit that Angelos is the problem, not the solution?



Peter Angelos' reputation? Yes, I've got that on a shelf here next to Paris Hilton's dignity, Michael Jackson's respectability, and Michael Brown's expertise. Angelos wants seats filled and customers billed - winning baseball doesn't factor in to it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I don't have much time to reply right now, but just let me say that I am not making up the bit about the smaller market owners growing more and more unhappy with the Yankees domination, and they will take some action to try to change the equation. And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap. I read this rather recently, within the last year.

Remember these owners are powerful and rich men every one of them, and they are not happy having to set back and watch the Yankees go into the playoffs for 11 years in a row (assuming they make it this year) due in large part to their financial advantages, while their teams don't have a realitic shot.

This situation simply cannot continue, common sense says it will end.

[GraniteYankee]

And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap.

They will have to do it over the union's dead bodies, which is the only way it would occur.

[NewOrioleWork]

The Orioles had some tough injury breaks this year, and that always hurts a team. But hearing Angelos talk about making his team successful (and hearing a baltimore fan express optimism over that) is really most amusing.

As long as you understand that is just *a* Orioles fan; and one who does not represent most of O's fandom (I swear sometimes people here think bj is some grand-ultimate ambassador of the Orioles who represents how we actually think and feel. No idea why you guys even reply to him anymore).

To say the least, the majority of O's fandom is skeptical.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25690
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25725
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25675
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37467
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37293
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Very few people in Baltimore believe in Peter Angelos, or the Baltimore Orioles for that matter.

--NOW

[rkh5donkey]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Is that guy's name really Peter Schmuck?

[NewOrioleWork]

Is that guy's name really Peter Schmuck?

Yeah, I know, right?

He's a pretty good columnist though. (Appropriately enough for a guy with the last name "Schmuck" he has a good sense of humor).

Later,
NOW

[Kulish29]

Myself, I would prefer a NFL style salary cap. Really this is inevitable, as the big market-money teams continue to dominate, the small market owners are growing more and more unhappy. They are the growing majority of the owners, and either this upcoming contract or the next one, baseball will be shut down until the salary cap is imposed.

You can keep dreaming of that, because it's not going to happen.

[NelsonMuntz]

As long as you understand that is just *a* Orioles fan; and one who does not represent most of O's fandom (I swear sometimes people here think bj is some grand-ultimate ambassador of the Orioles who represents how we actually think and feel. No idea why you guys even reply to him anymore).

To say the least, the majority of O's fandom is skeptical.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25690
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25725
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25675
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37467
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37293
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Very few people in Baltimore believe in Peter Angelos, or the Baltimore Orioles for that matter.

--NOW

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

[CTSoxFan]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

Ooooooooohhhh...they must have LOVED "Fun Bobby" on that site this summer.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

But Peter Angelos would prefer a level playing field. He has said as much in the past, "Let's have total revenue sharing then see where the Yankees and Orioles finish", or words to that effect. .

Unfortunatly, he doesn't believe in a level playing field in his competition with the nationals down the road. His TV agreement will permanently cripple their ability to compete in their division. Would the "revenue sharing" you refer to involve sharing more of the revenue that th Nats generate with the team that earned it?

This situation simply cannot continue, common sense says it will end.

Baseball has weathered a steroids scandal, and will have record attendance numbers again. About half the teams were in playoff contention with a month to go. The situation is not as desperate as you portray.

He's a pretty good columnist though. (Appropriately enough for a guy with the last name "Schmuck" he has a good sense of humor).

Somehow, a local radio guy here in LA (Fred Rogan) gets Schmuck as a guest about every other week. For a newspaper guy, he has a great sense of humor, and appears to be very knowlegeable about the game in general, not just the AL East and the O's.

[Saxmania]

I don't have much time to reply right now, but just let me say that I am not making up the bit about the smaller market owners growing more and more unhappy with the Yankees domination, and they will take some action to try to change the equation. And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap. I read this rather recently, within the last year.

Then I'd really like a source or two, if it's all the same to you, because this seems to contradict you:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05221/550813.stm

The Pittsburgh GM would like stronger revenue sharing, but the interviewer states that the majority of owners see a salary cap as unrealistic, and the GM does not contradict him. In fact, he moves, unprompted, to discuss other ways of levelling the playing field without using a salary cap.

It's not happening, bobby. Let it go. Sidney Ponson has a better chance of hiding behind Kate Moss.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[bobby jr]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

That is simply not true. The problem with the O's forum is there are too many "anti-Oriole" fans there, and they don't want anything positive written about the Orioles.

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

[bobby jr]

Then I'd really like a source or two, if it's all the same to you, because this seems to contradict you:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05221/550813.stm

The Pittsburgh GM would like stronger revenue sharing, but the interviewer states that the majority of owners see a salary cap as unrealistic, and the GM does not contradict him. In fact, he moves, unprompted, to discuss other ways of levelling the playing field without using a salary cap.

It's not happening, bobby. Let it go. Sidney Ponson has a better chance of hiding behind Kate Moss.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was. Next time I see something about the owners wanting a salary cap I'll post it here with the link.

[JDPNYY]

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was. Next time I see something about the owners wanting a salary cap I'll post it here with the link.

Hey bobby... I was at Camden Yards last night.... Lot's of Yankee fans there, yelling, screaming, chanting. Once in a while a fan wearing orange had something to say, but those instances were quickly drowned out by Yankee fans.

I think you lied to me.

[Saxmania]

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was.

In fact, bobby, I think you might have seen that article in 2001. That would explain a lot.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[ring403]

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

I'd like to see a list of the qualifications for being "the typical Orioles fan".

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

That's unfortunate for the typical Orioles' fan. A whole team's worth of fans wholly unable to acknowledge facts and reality.

[bobby jr]

That's unfortunate for the typical Orioles' fan. A whole team's worth of fans wholly unable to acknowledge facts and reality.

In point of fact the Sun's Orioles forum is dominated by Angelos hating posters who favor the Yankees over the Orioles. This is an unfortunate situation there are a few good Oriole fans who post there but they are in the minority.

I get along much better on the Red Sox forum than I do on the Orioles forum. although they don't really share my ideas about the need for a salary cap. In point of fact the Red Sox also come out ahead in the present flawed system, but not as far ahead as the Yankees do.

But when you go to the Orioles games, there you meet the true fans. And they do NOT hate Peter Angelos or believe that the Orioles will always finish runner up to the Yankees and Red Sox. Nor do they believe the present situation is fair, with the domination by the rich teams in MLB.