The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Why Not?]

Cabrera has had these sort of outings on occasion. More often, he's like this for five innings before totally forgetting how to throw the ball over the plate. When he's right, he can be very difficult to hit but at the same time very wild. Where he'll find the most success (assuming he ever does) is somewhere in the middle. He's got to let guys put the ball in play a little more often in exchange for pitching deeper into games.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Cabrera has had these sort of outings on occasion. More often, he's like this for five innings before totally forgetting how to throw the ball over the plate. When he's right, he can be very difficult to hit but at the same time very wild.

He's really a puzzler. He's clearly got great ability, but has so much difficulty harnessing it.

It is of course more than a little amusing to see Mazzone given credit for anything related to Cabrera this season (obviously this comment isn't in response to you WN).

[Astorian]

But the Orioles have no chance to compete under the current system, so it doesn't matter.

Exactly!

bobby jr says that :

"Mazzone can't work miracles in one year. But Cabrera and Bedard, there is definitely a good 1-2 punch there for next year. And Mazzone is starting to show the results. Remember that both Angelos and Steinbrenner tried to get him."

Yes, and who got Leo Mazzone again?

Baseball is so UNFAIR!!!!

[Mark19]

Mazzone can't work miracles in one year. But Cabrera and Bedard, there is definitely a good 1-2 punch there for next year. And Mazzone is starting to show the results. Remember that both Angelos and Steinbrenner tried to get him.

There is no love lost between Angelos and Mazzone. Mazzone went to the O's as a favor to his childhood friend Sam Perlozzo.

[Why Not?]

He's really a puzzler. He's clearly got great ability, but has so much difficulty harnessing it.

It is of course more than a little amusing to see Mazzone given credit for anything related to Cabrera this season (obviously this comment isn't in response to you WN).

I agree. If Mazzone gets any credit for Cabrera's final start of the year, he deserves blame for all of the crappy ones as well.

[Bob Saccomano]

Actually, Loewen has been pretty awful against everybody but the Yanks. Cabrera has been pretty awful against anybody but the Yanks. And Hayden Penn has just been awful.

Mazzone's work is paying off well.

Even this is untrue. He was godawfully bad against the Yankees in his last start against them, IIRC. Bobby certainly wasn't talking about what Leo had done with him then. In his last 3 starts, Cabrera didn't show anything approaching the level of success he enjoyed last night. To say that he's a beneficiary of Leo Mazzone on such a small sample size is stretching.

[Bob Saccomano]

With Baltimore rapidly approaching the 900 runs allowed mark, I wonder how much credit bobby wants to give him for that. Oh, right, he can't work wonders in a year. That's only with Cabrera, who leads the AL in walks.

[effdamets]

With Baltimore rapidly approaching the 900 runs allowed mark, I wonder how much credit bobby wants to give him for that. Oh, right, he can't work wonders in a year. That's only with Cabrera, who leads the AL in walks.

And he missed 6 and 1/2 weeks of the season!!!!

[bobby jr]

But the Orioles have no chance to compete under the current system, so it doesn't matter.

Actually there is much truth to your statement. I have no illusions that the Orioles will ever be able to compete on a long term basis with the Yankees and their payroll under the current highly unfair system which exists. The Yankees payroll is nearly 200 million and how long until it goes back over that amount. This does not mean that I cannot enjoy the Orioles successes and victories when the do occur. However I keep them in the proper context. The most important thing to me is that the MLB system be resolved to give the Orioles and other small market teams a fair chance. I am not satisfied with 1 hitters in September when my team is hopelessly out of the race, when the team which is winning had a tremendous head start in the race. I want more than that. Now as for Cabrera, he has a great fastball, and his control has always been his problem. But many great power pitchers such as Koufax and Ryan had control problems early in their career. Cabrera, under the watchful eye of Mazzone, well his potential is virtually unlimited. He has shown such promise, imagine if he could pitch like he did last night more often!

[effdamets]

Actually there is much truth to your statement. I have no illusions that the Orioles will ever be able to compete on a long term basis with the Yankees and their payroll under the current highly unfair system which exists. The Yankees payroll is nearly 200 million and how long until it goes back over that amount. This does not mean that I cannot enjoy the Orioles successes and victories when the do occur. However I keep them in the proper context. The most important thing to me is that the MLB system be resolved to give the Orioles and other small market teams a fair chance. I am not satisfied with 1 hitters in September when my team is hopelessly out of the race, when the team which is winning had a tremendous head start in the race. I want more than that. Now as for Cabrera, he has a great fastball, and his control has always been his problem. But many great power pitchers such as Koufax and Ryan had control problems early in their career. Cabrera, under the watchful eye of Mazzone, well his potential is virtually unlimited. He has shown such promise, imagine if he could pitch like he did last night more often!

What you are failing to understand is that the Orioles DO have a fair chance. MLB and the other owners are no going to hand the Orioles success on a silver platter.

Write a letter to Uncle Petey and tell him to get off his lawyer ass and either follow the model that had been set forth by teams like the Braves, Twins and A's or, his alternative, to sell the team to make the Baltimore Orioles a better organization.

[cmaff05]

Even this is untrue. He was godawfully bad against the Yankees in his last start against them, IIRC. Bobby certainly wasn't talking about what Leo had done with him then. In his last 3 starts, Cabrera didn't show anything approaching the level of success he enjoyed last night. To say that he's a beneficiary of Leo Mazzone on such a small sample size is stretching.

I wasn't saying that he was a beneficiary of Leo Mazzone.

[spyglass]

With Baltimore rapidly approaching the 900 runs allowed mark, I wonder how much credit bobby wants to give him for that. Oh, right, he can't work wonders in a year. That's only with Cabrera, who leads the AL in walks.

It's amazing, isn't it? That we can bring up all these points and questions we ask bobby directly, and instead he takes one sarcastic comment and ignores the rest of it. Amazing, don't you think?

Now as for Cabrera, he has a great fastball, and his control has always been his problem. But many great power pitchers such as Koufax and Ryan had control problems early in their career. Cabrera, under the watchful eye of Mazzone, well his potential is virtually unlimited. He has shown such promise, imagine if he could pitch like he did last night more often!

Of course! Under the watchful eye of Mazzone, you'll be sure to see one-hitters every night! ...


Cabrera's potential is virtually unlimited with or without Mazzone. His potential is going to be there regardless of his pitching coach; he's always had it. Yet, just two starts ago vs. Detroit he gave up 6 ER in 4 IP. If Mazzone gets credit for last night's performance, what about that start against Detroit?

[NYKforever]

Open up the checkbook for Soriano in the offseason and don't tell me this team can't compete for at least a wild card spot.


Bedard
Cabrera
Benson
Loewen
Penn

CL: Ray

2B Roberts
3B Mora
LF Soriano
SS Tejada
C Hernandez
RF Markakis
1B Gibbons
DH Fahey
CF Patterson

[kobayashimaru]

Open up the checkbook for Soriano in the offseason and don't tell me this team can't compete for at least a wild card spot.


Bedard
Cabrera
Benson
Loewen
Penn

CL: Ray

2B Roberts
3B Mora
LF Soriano
SS Tejada
C Hernandez
RF Markakis
1B Gibbons
DH Fahey
CF Patterson

They'll need another good starter. So It's going to need a Payroll increase of about 30M.

[kobayashimaru]

Actually there is much truth to your statement. I have no illusions that the Orioles will ever be able to compete on a long term basis with the Yankees and their payroll under the current highly unfair system which exists. The Yankees payroll is nearly 200 million and how long until it goes back over that amount. This does not mean that I cannot enjoy the Orioles successes and victories when the do occur. However I keep them in the proper context. The most important thing to me is that the MLB system be resolved to give the Orioles and other small market teams a fair chance. I am not satisfied with 1 hitters in September when my team is hopelessly out of the race, when the team which is winning had a tremendous head start in the race. I want more than that. Now as for Cabrera, he has a great fastball, and his control has always been his problem. But many great power pitchers such as Koufax and Ryan had control problems early in their career. Cabrera, under the watchful eye of Mazzone, well his potential is virtually unlimited. He has shown such promise, imagine if he could pitch like he did last night more often!

I think it's a very difficult argument to make when Blue Jays, Min, As are doing so well as a small budget team and the Yankees won their world series when their payroll advantage is minimal against the top payroll teams (I believe in 1998 Orioles actually had the highest payroll. I could be wrong).

*Edit Sorry for posting arguments that have been made before.

[spyglass]

Well, I think they might be a year or so off from contending for a WC spot, but I could be wrong. The SP needs to show consistency (other than Bedard, who has been very, very good without a doubt and should be a rock in the rotation) and they need to find someone for middle relief who can consistently get hitters out.

But still, it would help a lot if they could prove that they were moving towards contention. It would help a lot with the team's ability to draw impact free agents.

[cmaff05]

Open up the checkbook for Soriano in the offseason and don't tell me this team can't compete for at least a wild card spot.


Bedard
Cabrera
Benson
Loewen
Penn

CL: Ray

2B Roberts
3B Mora
LF Soriano
SS Tejada
C Hernandez
RF Markakis
1B Gibbons
DH Fahey
CF Patterson

That rotation has the potential to be good, but it has the potential to suck once again. Just because Cabrera ended the year with a one-hitter doesn't mean that he has now changed into a consistent pitcher. That's always been his problem. Penn and Loewen are big question marks, but if they realize their potential next year, the Orioles should have atleast a winning record.

[effdamets]

That rotation has the potential to be good, but it has the potential to suck once again. Just because Cabrera ended the year with a one-hitter doesn't mean that he has now changed into a consistent pitcher. That's always been his problem. Penn and Loewen are big question marks, but if they realize their potential next year, the Orioles should have atleast a winning record.

Yeah... Let's let them crawl before they walk...

BTW: I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Orioles re-sign Millar because of his great "clubhouse presence".... Even though that would be an extremely bad move for them! <*enter Peter Angelos*>

[Mark19]

Open up the checkbook for Soriano in the offseason and don't tell me this team can't compete for at least a wild card spot.


Bedard
Cabrera
Benson
Loewen
Penn

CL: Ray

2B Roberts
3B Mora
LF Soriano
SS Tejada
C Hernandez
RF Markakis
1B Gibbons
DH Fahey
CF Patterson

no team in their right mind would bat Soriano clean-up, he would strand dozens of runners by striking out on ball in the dirt

[Bob Saccomano]

no team in their right mind would bat Soriano clean-up, he would strand dozens of runners by striking out on ball in the dirt

The problem with batting him leadoff is that his strikeout tendencies don't fit well with that role; nor does his power, which would be better suited to middle-of-the-lineup type of hitting to drive runners in. The only thing subserved by hitting leadoff is his speed, which, while formidable, could still be used in the middle of the lineup to give the bottom guys a chance to score him.

[Why Not?]

Open up the checkbook for Soriano in the offseason and don't tell me this team can't compete for at least a wild card spot.


Bedard
Cabrera
Benson
Loewen
Penn

CL: Ray

2B Roberts
3B Mora
LF Soriano
SS Tejada
C Hernandez
RF Markakis
1B Gibbons
DH Fahey
CF Patterson

If Brandon Fahey is our starting DH on opening day, I want you to come to my house and kill me.

The key for any near-future success is the advancement of the young pitching. Everything hinges on those guys. If they don't develop, nothing else matters. That's not saying we dont' need a couple of more weapons on offense, cus we do.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

The key for any near-future success is the advancement of the young pitching. Everything hinges on those guys. If they don't develop, nothing else matters.

Do the O's have well regarded pitching prospects in the minors? Is Loewen considered a real prospect or is he just a guy brought up because they needed someone? Has the shine worn off Penn a little or is he still thought of as having a lot of promise?

[Why Not?]

Do the O's have well regarded pitching prospects in the minors? Is Loewen considered a real prospect or is he just a guy brought up because they needed someone? Has the shine worn off Penn a little or is he still thought of as having a lot of promise?

Most of the young pitching is already here. Bedard, Cabrera, Loewen and Penn.

Loewen is legit. He was the fourth overall pick in the 2002 draft but didn't sign until the following May, then missed much of 2003-04 with injuries. He signed a major league contract, meaning he has to be on the 25-man roster (or go through waivers) by this fall. His progress was stalled somewhat by the injuries and he might have been called up a little early. He's all but untouchable in trade talks.

The shine has worn off Penn a little, but it's hard what to make of his late-season performance. He pitched very well in AAA before his appendectomy. He was out a while and never pitched well afterwards. But he's still just 21.

The next crop of young guys is at least a year away. Garrett Olson, Brandon Erbe, J.J. Johnson and Rahames Liz seem to be the top names right now. By the time those guys prove their worth the Orioles should have a better idea of how good Cabrera, Penn and Loewen can be.

[Philip Hughes Fan]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Major League Baseball broke its season attendance record Saturday and was on track to finish with the second-highest per-game average in the sport's history.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

Man, the Yankees are just killing baseball.

[YankeePride1967]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

Man, the Yankees are just killing baseball.

can't be true. The Orioles are stinking, therefore MLB is broken