The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[hellonewman]

The Orioles kind of made a statement about which team owns the Baltimore DC corridor right now, with the sweep of the Nationals this weekend.

So when they swept the Red Sox earlier this year, was that making a statement about who owns the American League East?

Yes, all eyes of the baseball world will be on Atlanta tonight as Stephen Strasburg and the up-and-coming Nationals take on the Braves! Feel the excitement!

When you say they are the "future of baseball in the Baltimore-DC corridor" I hope you are not implying the Orioles will leave Baltimore.

They should never have left St. Louis. It's a crime that the people of Baltimore were able to benefit off the financial problems of an underfinanced franchise in a smaller city. A crime I tell you. Who was looking out for the Browns fans?

[bobby jr]

So when they swept the Red Sox earlier this year, was that making a statement about who owns the American League East?

Yes, all eyes of the baseball world will be on Atlanta tonight as Stephen Strasburg and the up-and-coming Nationals take on the Braves! Feel the excitement!

They should never have left St. Louis. It's a crime that the people of Baltimore were able to benefit off the financial problems of an underfinanced franchise in a smaller city. A crime I tell you. Who was looking out for the Browns fans?

I hardly think the Nationals are in the same league with the Red Sox. It would be hard to claim Oriole mastery over the Sox based upon one series.

This Orioles-Nats series this weekend past was not about which team will make the playoffs (neither will). But there has always been a rivalry between Baltimore and Washington, and this weekend Baltimore's Orioles came out ahead.

It wasn't just that they swept the Nationals, it was the rather devastating way the Nationals lost those games. They had rather substantial leads of several runs in every single game, and yet lost every game. What does that say about the Nationals bullpen? Losing games in this manner is very disheartening can have carryover affects for following games.

[Mr Coffee]

I hardly think the Nationals are in the same league with the Red Sox. It would be hard to claim Oriole mastery over the Sox based upon one series.

This Orioles-Nats series this weekend past was not about which team will make the playoffs (neither will). But there has always been a rivalry between Baltimore and Washington, and this weekend Baltimore's Orioles came out ahead.

It wasn't just that they swept the Nationals, it was the rather devastating way the Nationals lost those games. They had rather substantial leads of several runs in every single game, and yet lost every game. What does that say about the Nationals bullpen? Losing games in this manner is very disheartening can have carryover affects for following games.

Dating all the back to when my grandfather watched the games in 2005.

/he was 89

[ring403]

I've already responded to similar arguments many times.

Of course there will always be exceptions to the rule that high payroll = high regular season winning percentage. However when you look at MLB as a whole at the end of every season, there is a strong positive correlation between winning percentage and team payroll. Therefore the large market teams MLB teams have a competitive advantage which does not exist in sports which have a salary cap, which is what MLB needs.

Of course a higher payroll provides an advantage. No one is denying that.
What so many take issue with is your assertion that the sole reason the once proud Orioles franchise has been reduced to a laughing stock during the last 15 years is merely the difference in payroll between Baltimore and other teams. And that somehow if there was a salary cap installed, the O's would be a contender.
You know as well as everyone else that the Orioles have been, and continue to be, their own worst enemy. Any reasonable fan would be outraged at the decisions that Peter Angelos has made during his tenure as owner. Instead you choose to pin the blame everywhere but where it really belongs.

The real shame is that there are good O's fans who are members here, and their attempts at honest, intelligent discussions of their team are inevitably derailed by your constant re-hashing of the same old flimsy arguments.

[bobby jr]

win. Tampa beat the Yankees one year, but it is unlikely they will win the AL Ea

Of course a higher payroll provides an advantage. No one is denying that.
What so many take issue with is your assertion that the sole reason the once proud Orioles franchise has been reduced to a laughing stock during the last 15 years is merely the difference in payroll between Baltimore and other teams. And that somehow if there was a salary cap installed, the O's would be a contender.
You know as well as everyone else that the Orioles have been, and continue to be, their own worst enemy. Any reasonable fan would be outraged at the decisions that Peter Angelos has made during his tenure as owner. Instead you choose to pin the blame everywhere but where it really belongs.

The real shame is that there are good O's fans who are members here, and their attempts at honest, intelligent discussions of their team are inevitably derailed by your constant re-hashing of the same old flimsy arguments.

First of all I disagree that the O's are a laughing stock. They have won 4 straight games, and show signs of having a better 2nd half of the season. Several key players are coming back from injury, and some of their young hitters are coming around. I doubt they will have the worst record in the league much longer.

Secondly, I never said the "sole reason" for the Orioles demise was the lack of a salary cap in MLB and the resulting payroll inequities between teams. You are setting up a straw man argument, knocking me down from a position I never took. I have repeatedly said the O's have made mistakes over the last few years.

My position is that the Orioles could improve under the current system, and if they made all the right moves they could win the division or make the wild card for a year or two.

However, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees over an extended period of time, say for a decade, due to the advantage the Yankees enjoy in market size and payroll.

It is impossible for a smaller market team to beat a team with a 200 million plus payroll over an extended period of time. In the regular season, the 200 million payroll team will almost always st again. The high payroll team will end up with a higher regular season winning percentage virtually every year, no matter what the small market team does. (With very rare exceptions, such as Tampa Bay two years ago)

This has proven true since the late 90's in the AL East and I see no signs this situation will change. And this is not acceptable to me. I grew up with the Orioles winning and dominating year in and year out. I want the Orioles to be able to dominate just as the Yankees have.

[hellonewman]

First of all I disagree that the O's are a laughing stock. They have won 4 straight games

[False1]

However, they will never be able to compete with the Yankees over an extended period of time,

Thank goodness then for four game win streaks. Yeeeehah.

[#1PaFan]

I'm really thinking that Junior is not real. He's probably a psychology student working on a paper for some subject I can't figure out.

[I'm A Wenner!]

8 years or research? He's really, really committed.

[YankeePride1967]

First of all I disagree that the O's are a laughing stock. They have won 4 straight games

This could be the funniest thing you've ever said here and that's saying a lot. Yup, those 4 wins over the two worst teams in the NL Least really makes up for the Orioles 10 years of incompetence under the clown Angelos.

[35Knucklecurve]

One pitcher doesn't make a team. The Nationals seem to be in free fall mode right now. The Orioles kind of made a statement about which team owns the Baltimore DC corridor right now, with the sweep of the Nationals this weekend.

Speaking of young talent The Orioles Wieters made the cover of Sports Illustrated this spring ("The Perfect Catch") and he is the best young catcher in MLB, despite his slow start this year. I looked up several Hall of Fame catchers (Bench, Carter) and they had off years early in their careers. The way Wieters played this year is not typical of what he is going to do.

When you say they are the "future of baseball in the Baltimore-DC corridor" I hope you are not implying the Orioles will leave Baltimore.

So Strasburg doesn't make the Nats a team, but Wieters does? In either case, it doesn't make any difference how much potential either of them has. Playing on teams who can't seem to get out their own way is going to limit just how far they can go.

As for "owning the Balt/DC corridor", that's like saying you own the bragging rights to BP oil right now.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

8 years or research? He's really, really committed.

Dissertations take a lot of work. And I think we'd all have to sheepishly acknowledge that we've provided plenty of material.

[Beccash18]

I wonder what would happen if we all decided not to post in this thread anymore? I know it would be hard to do, but the results could be interesting.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Speaking of young talent The Orioles Wieters made the cover of Sports Illustrated this spring ("The Perfect Catch") and he is the best young catcher in MLB, despite his slow start this year.

He's certainly the most highly regarded. It's a little silly to say he's the best when his performance has been a disappointment so far, while Miguel Montero (admittedly a few years older than Wieters), and Carlos Santana (admittedly in very little playing time thus far) have both performed in the majors at a level well above what he has done. A slow start doesn't mean he won't be a star and prove himself better than them. I imagine Wieters will indeed develop into an excellent major leaguer. But to be called the best, a guy should probably show something.

I looked up several Hall of Fame catchers (Bench, Carter) and they had off years early in their careers. The way Wieters played this year is not typical of what he is going to do.

Good stuff bobby. I love the way you make these assertions as if they're straightforward facts. Wieters is a young prospect, and early struggles are little indication that he won't become a fine, or even a great, player. But to simply assert that his early play isn't representative of what his career will be is your typical silliness. I don't think it is, and obviously neither do you, but that's nothing more than our expectations. For now, all he is a heralded guy with a great resume, who's faling short of the hype. Whether this is typical of what's he'll do in the future remains to be seen. And I must say, given your history of predictions on this board, I fear for Wieters' future, given your confidence in his success.

[kan_t]

You know who else is a good example of the unforgiving nature of baseball’s long season, at least at the moment? Baltimore’s Matt Wieters. Hey, I want to love Wieters just like everyone else. He’s a 24-year-old, switch-hitting catcher with natural power and his own Matt Wieters Facts page. He has been on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Whenever I talk to anybody in baseball about him, I will get the “He will be fine,” and “I would sure love to have him,” lines. And I appreciate that. If I had to guess, I would guess they’re right. If I was to hope, I would also hope they’re right. I like Wieters.

However, Matt Wieters is hitting .236/.307/.346. There has been a lot of talk about sending him back to the minor leagues. In 646 big-league at-bats so far, his OPS+ is 89 and dropping.

This is not to doubt Matt Wieters future … like I say, it would be great for baseball and Baltimore for him to become a star. it is only to say that in baseball that, all the hype, all the talent, all the potential, all the fun facts in the world do not add up to anything tangible. Matt Wieters will become a star if he hits. And if he doesn’t hit, he will become a huge disappointment. The scouts and fans who love him can’t make him a star.

In other words: Wieters, as his facts page says, may be the one guy who can have his cake and eat it too. But another fact is that until he starts hitting more line drives and and starts hitting better right-handed and so on, well, the seasons will feel impossibly long.

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010...e-long-season/

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010...e-long-season/

You know, there's not much that should be more required reading for baseball fans than Joe Posnanski.

[hellonewman]

He's really, really committed.

You said it!

http://www.sheppardpratt.org/sp_html...c_balt_sp.aspx

[NelsonMuntz]

I'm really thinking that Junior is not real. He's probably a psychology student working on a paper for some subject I can't figure out.

[just-blaze]

Samuel is so much horrible than Trembley.

Good call Baltimore FO.

[bobby jr]

Samuel is so much horrible than Trembley.

Good call Baltimore FO.

Trembley was not a good manager. The O's had to go with an interim (Samuel) because many good candidates would not want to interview while a permanent manager is in place.

[hardrain]

I'm really thinking that Junior is not real. He's probably a psychology student working on a paper for some subject I can't figure out.

I agree. I've actually thought along these lines for quite some time. He can't be real.

[NelsonMuntz]

Samuel is so much horrible than Trembley.

Good call Baltimore FO.

As much as I love seeing Baltimore as the perpetual AL East doormat, it genuinely irritates me any time a front office makes awful baseball decisions (and/or refuses to invest in the team) and then fires the manager when the team struggles.

[WaltKowalski]

Samuel is so much horrible than Trembley.

Good call Baltimore FO.

Just curious, but what are you basing this on? Neither manager had talent to work with and neither manager can win with this team.

Had Samuel made a lot of boneheaded moves that Trembley would not have?

[bobby jr]

As much as I love seeing Baltimore as the perpetual AL East doormat, it genuinely irritates me any time a front office makes awful baseball decisions (and/or refuses to invest in the team) and then fires the manager when the team struggles.

It bothered you that Trembley was fired? He had no proven track record, made bad decisions with the bullpen, made mistakes with his coaching staff. He deserved to be fired. The team was not playing up to their potential under his leadership, or lack thereof.

[BaylorBearYankeeFan]

It bothered you that Trembley was fired? He had no proven track record, made bad decisions with the bullpen, made mistakes with his coaching staff. He deserved to be fired. The team was not playing up to their potential under his leadership, or lack thereof.

It's not that Trembley was bad--he was. It is that the team that he was working with was worse than he was. Unfortunately, you cannot fire the players.