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  1. #301
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    The B-W Parkway ain't exactly a speedway....



    It actually takes about 43 minutes to make that trip during rush hour, not over an hour. How would driving to Baltiimore be just as easy if you claim it takes 2 hours to make in to D.C.? You are hurting your own argument by mentioning the boom in Louden and Fairfax counties. Obviously those are folks who would go to a Nats game and therefore make putting the team in Washington a no-brainer.
    We live in Loudoun - Cascades/Countryside area. We went to a couple Sunday afternoon games at RFK last year. Drive time from the house to the parking lot was 35-45 minutes max. Getting home after the games took a bit longer. All in all a very easy trip.

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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by LongtimeNYYFan
    We live in Loudoun - Cascades/Countryside area. We went to a couple Sunday afternoon games at RFK last year. Drive time from the house to the parking lot was 35-45 minutes max. Getting home after the games took a bit longer. All in all a very easy trip.
    Thank You. Whynot is trying to paint a doomsday scenario so his Orioles can again reap from someone else's soil. It's funny though because Nats fans have little fear they will succeed with a real owner and a new stadium and O's fans are not so sure. You'd think a 50 year old team would be a bit more secure about their future.

  3. #303
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    Thank You. Whynot is trying to paint a doomsday scenario so his Orioles can again reap from someone else's soil. It's funny though because Nats fans have little fear they will succeed with a real owner and a new stadium and O's fans are not so sure. You'd think a 50 year old team would be a bit more secure about their future.
    Lopping 25% from any team's potential fan base and half of their TV/media market probably SHOULD cause some insecurity, shouldn't it? The Orioles go from having one of the larger markets in all of baseball to splitting that area with another team, with the larger portion of the population of that area living closer to the other team's ballpark. Should Orioles fans be happy about that?

    I think the answer to my question is obvious, especially considering the attitudes fans here show about the possibility of putting a team in New Jersey, an area that doesn't have two failed teams on its resume. Any fan base would be concerned with an almost assured drop in ticket sales and therefore payroll. Alas, no other team has been asked to bite that bullet while the Orioles have.

    For 30 years, DC was in no way "someone else's soil." Whose soil did DC belong to? There was no baseball team there because two teams had failed in the DC market. Nobody wanted that soil so the Orioles took it. Why wouldn't they?

    So while Nats fans might think the team will thrive and last season's ho-hum attendance can be explained away, it seems MLB knew better all along. Baseball didn't even want DC's soil until contraction failed. They put four expansion teams in smaller markets and tried to shut down two franchises rather than put baseball back in DC. Only when Montreal became a disaster and an embarrasment did MLB finally decide to put there.

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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    25% my ass. That number has not been supported by anyone not directly linked to Peter Ruinateamgelos.

    Again, do your homework. Two teams did not fail in D.C. One left for racist reasons and the other for a sweetheart deal in Texas.

    D.C. belongs to D.C. If you really think baseball did not come to Washington because it felt those other areas were better suited then you know nothing about the morons who run baseball and how the good ole boy network works.

    What would have been nice would have been for EB Williams to move the team to D.C. like he planned. That way the team would be in the larger metropolis and Baltimore would still be fully served according to your logic. Your logic about taking soil no one wanted could be used to support not putting another NFL team in Balmer too and making those fans take up the Skins or have nothing.

  5. #305
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    Your logic about taking soil no one wanted could be used to support not putting another NFL team in Balmer too and making those fans take up the Skins or have nothing.
    The difference being that Baltimore sufficiently supported its football team whereas Washington never supported its baseball team(s). DC didn't even support its third team to expected levels. Of course, you'll point to the ownership/marketing excuse while ignoring the fact that the team was in first place for months and finished .500 while outdrawing the 99-loss inaugural Devil Rays (playing in a smaller market) by about 1,000 per game.

    We'll just have to disagree on how important the attendance figures are. A revamped team might cure the attendance ills, but I think it's a sign of things to come.

    Baltimore jumped through the necessary hoops to get NFL expansion and was denied. Baltimore also did what it took to make sure EBW didn't move the Orioles south, whereas Washington did not do what it took to keep its baseball teams and never put together a good enough package to draw an expansion team despite being the largest market available. D.C. still hasn't closed the deal that would allow it to keep THIS team.

  6. #306
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    25% my ass. That number has not been supported by anyone not directly linked to Peter Ruinateamgelos.

    Again, do your homework. Two teams did not fail in D.C. One left for racist reasons and the other for a sweetheart deal in Texas.

    D.C. belongs to D.C. If you really think baseball did not come to Washington because it felt those other areas were better suited then you know nothing about the morons who run baseball and how the good ole boy network works.

    What would have been nice would have been for EB Williams to move the team to D.C. like he planned. That way the team would be in the larger metropolis and Baltimore would still be fully served according to your logic. Your logic about taking soil no one wanted could be used to support not putting another NFL team in Balmer too and making those fans take up the Skins or have nothing.
    Forget it YankyDave. All of these arguments have been made ad nauseum yet Why Not is choosing not to listen. It's like talking to a brick wall.
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  7. #307
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    Of course, you'll point to the ownership/marketing excuse while ignoring the fact that the team was in first place for months and finished .500 while outdrawing the 99-loss inaugural Devil Rays (playing in a smaller market) by about 1,000 per game.
    The Nationals averaged 33,651 fans per game last year which was 11th best in MLB. They did this with virtually no marketing, no marquee players, no TV deal (for the majority of the region) a horrible stadium, and a fanbase that is understandably skeptical of MLB's permanent plans for the team. When I purchased my partial season ticket plan last year I had to initiate the effort on my own and found most of the information on unofficial fan sites. There were no mailings, no special offers, no coupons, no advertising, no flyers -- NOTHING to help me through the purchasing process. Do you know anything about marketing? This is the absolute worst way to sell a product.

    You can put a negative spin on it if that helps you feel better about the Nationals outdrawing the Orioles, but most people feel that the Nationals did quite well last year and I have no doubts that they will draw even better once the team is sold and marketed properly.
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  8. #308
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    The difference being that Baltimore sufficiently supported its football team whereas Washington never supported its baseball team(s). DC didn't even support its third team to expected levels. Of course, you'll point to the ownership/marketing excuse while ignoring the fact that the team was in first place for months and finished .500 while outdrawing the 99-loss inaugural Devil Rays (playing in a smaller market) by about 1,000 per game.

    We'll just have to disagree on how important the attendance figures are. A revamped team might cure the attendance ills, but I think it's a sign of things to come.

    Baltimore jumped through the necessary hoops to get NFL expansion and was denied. Baltimore also did what it took to make sure EBW didn't move the Orioles south, whereas Washington did not do what it took to keep its baseball teams and never put together a good enough package to draw an expansion team despite being the largest market available. D.C. still hasn't closed the deal that would allow it to keep THIS team.
    Yeah those Colts fans showed up in droves. I am sure you will blame a crappy team though since you won't accept that argument regarding the Senators.

  9. #309
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
    The Nationals averaged 33,651 fans per game last year which was 11th best in MLB. They did this with virtually no marketing, no marquee players, no TV deal (for the majority of the region) a horrible stadium, and a fanbase that is understandably skeptical of MLB's permanent plans for the team. When I purchased my partial season ticket plan last year I had to initiate the effort on my own and found most of the information on unofficial fan sites. There were no mailings, no special offers, no coupons, no advertising, no flyers -- NOTHING to help me through the purchasing process. Do you know anything about marketing? This is the absolute worst way to sell a product.

    You can put a negative spin on it if that helps you feel better about the Nationals outdrawing the Orioles, but most people feel that the Nationals did quite well last year and I have no doubts that they will draw even better once the team is sold and marketed properly.
    In each and every case, recent expansion teams have reached their high-water attendance mark in their first season and none of those teams played in as large a market nor had the on-field success of the Nationals. As the the Rays, D'backs, Rockies, Marlins acquired marquee players and won more games, their attendance still went down. All the factors you mention are valid, but I don't think those factors will overcome a pretty solid historical tendancy. Maybe DC will be the exception to the rule, but I don't think it will.

    I don't feel bad about the Orioles attendance and I won't make excuses for it. It sucked and it would have been even worse if Yankee and Red Sox fans didn't sell the place out several times. Orioles fans are pretty sick of losing and pretty angry at the owner. Eight years of losing in often surreal ways has had its effect.

    So if it helps you feel better about the Nationals attendance and higher-than-usual level of no-shows at RFK by comparing their numbers to a team on an eight-year losing streak, go for it.

  10. #310
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    Yeah those Colts fans showed up in droves. I am sure you will blame a crappy team though since you won't accept that argument regarding the Senators.
    Colts attendance was fine. It's tough to find NFL attendance numbers, but I do know there was a lengthy sell-out streak at Memorial Stadium. Nothing like the Skins streak, but it's still noteworthy. Obviously crowds went down right before the Colts moved when the team set the all-time record for points allowed. The strike didn't help either.

    FWIW, Baltimore drew 30K+ for two seasons of Canadian Football at crumbling Memorial Stadium in the 1990s. I distinctly remember going to a game one week when a bathroom had to be closed because crap had backed up onto the floor. At the game the following week, it hadn't been cleaned up.

    But over time, Baltimore proved it would support football. Even when the Senators were competitive, they didn't draw very well.

  11. #311
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    But over time, Baltimore proved it would support football. Even when the Senators were competitive, they didn't draw very well.
    Using a fans-per-wins formula, the Senators were one of the best supported teams of their era.
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  12. #312
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
    Using a fans-per-wins formula, the Senators were one of the best supported teams of their era.
    I've seen that formula used before. I think Phil Wood brings it up as often as he can though he never presents the actual numbers. It seems to me a team is going to draw a certain number of fans no matter how hopelessly bad the team is if only because baseball at its worst level is still pretty good entertainment.....plus they sell beer. So putting up a terrible W-L mark over time just inflates that ratio.

    I'm not going to go to these lengths to prove my theory, but I would bet that many of the teams high up on the fans-per-win list were bad teams with low attendance.

  13. #313

    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    It seems to me a team is going to draw a certain number of fans no matter how hopelessly bad the team is if only because baseball at its worst level is still pretty good entertainment.....plus they sell beer. So putting up a terrible W-L mark over time just inflates that ratio.

    I'm not going to go to these lengths to prove my theory, but I would bet that many of the teams high up on the fans-per-win list were bad teams with low attendance.
    That is completely contradicted by the facts. Baseball is, by far, the sport with the most success-dependent attendance.

  14. #314
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk
    That is completely contradicted by the facts. Baseball is, by far, the sport with the most success-dependent attendance.
    As 'Why Not' himself admitted when we talked about the Orioles' and the Mariners' success in keeping their fan explosion after a new park debuted. The Cubs and the Red Sox are the only exceptions I can think of, and even they see success-based peaks.

    I don't buy this '25% cut in fanbase' thing, either. Why did the Orioles' attendance only drop by 100k if their fanbase was cut to 3/4s of its previous size? Given that Baltimore fans are 'sick of losing and angry at their owner', why are some on this board regurgitating their owner's lies about their new neighbor?

    Angelos is a man who managed to get his team's games shown in DC far more easily than Washington games! Please don't buy his lies about the Nationals 'infringing' on Baltimore's turf. He's completely incapable of fair business practise where the Nationals are concerned, and therefore cannot be trusted.

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  15. #315
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxmania

    I don't buy this '25% cut in fanbase' thing, either. Why did the Orioles' attendance only drop by 100k if their fanbase was cut to 3/4s of its previous size? Given that Baltimore fans are 'sick of losing and angry at their owner', why are some on this board regurgitating their owner's lies about their new neighbor?
    Orioles-backed studies say 25% of their fans came from D.C. I think that number's exaggerated, but I don't have a better number, so that's what I've used rather than making a random guess. I don't think PGA ever claimed that attendance would go down 25%.

    I think the Orioles' attendance only dropped a small amount was due to 1) being in first place for a couple of months and 2) more and more Yanks and Red Sox fans making the trip to OPCY. Some of that 25% of fans from the DC are likely still attended games in Baltimore. I wouldn't expect the Orioles number to drop below 25,000 regardless of how bad they are, if only because OPCY is still THE thing to do if you're vacationing in Baltimore. It also helps that visiting fans from NY, Boston and Philly have made it a home-away-from home.

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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    Orioles-backed studies say 25% of their fans came from D.C. I think that number's exaggerated, but I don't have a better number, so that's what I've used rather than making a random guess. I don't think PGA ever claimed that attendance would go down 25%.
    "But Angelos has estimated that 25 percent of the Orioles' attendance comes from the D.C. area"

    http://espn.go.com/page2/wash/s/2002/0311/1349316.html


    I think the Orioles' attendance only dropped a small amount was due to 1) being in first place for a couple of months and 2) more and more Yanks and Red Sox fans making the trip to OPCY. Some of that 25% of fans from the DC are likely still attended games in Baltimore. I wouldn't expect the Orioles number to drop below 25,000 regardless of how bad they are, if only because OPCY is still THE thing to do if you're vacationing in Baltimore. It also helps that visiting fans from NY, Boston and Philly have made it a home-away-from home.
    Well unless the Red Sox and Yanks fans all die off I'd say the O's should be just fine selling tickets. If their attendance stays where it is and since Angelos owns not only his team's TV rights but another team's TV rights, they should be well off.

  17. #317
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by YankyDave
    Well unless the Red Sox and Yanks fans all die off I'd say the O's should be just fine selling tickets. If their attendance stays where it is and since Angelos owns not only his team's TV rights but another team's TV rights, they should be well off.
    As much as I dislike Yanks and Sox fans at Camden Yards, I don't necessarily want them to DIE!

    Believe me, I hope it's fine. I hope I'm wrong about the Nats' effect on the O's payroll. But I maintain that fans of any other team would feel the same way Orioles fans do about a team coming into direct competition with theirs.

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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    As much as I dislike Yanks and Sox fans at Camden Yards, I don't necessarily want them to DIE!

    Believe me, I hope it's fine. I hope I'm wrong about the Nats' effect on the O's payroll. But I maintain that fans of any other team would feel the same way Orioles fans do about a team coming into direct competition with theirs.
    The only thing affecting the O's payroll is a diminutive greek lawyer with the face that only an orangutan mother could love.

  19. #319
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    Orioles-backed studies say 25% of their fans came from D.C. I think that number's exaggerated, but I don't have a better number, so that's what I've used rather than making a random guess. I don't think PGA ever claimed that attendance would go down 25%.
    A professional study produced by firms which Major League Baseball has used in the past indicates that just 13% of O's fans are from the DC Metro area, and of that 13% only 4% are from Northern VA. I have a copy of the full study in PDF format. If anyone wants to read it, you can download it here:

    http://rapidshare.de/files/13980074/...dy_1_.pdf.html
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  20. #320
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Good thing the O's got that fancy new pitching coach...

    http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9262021/rss

    Mazzone on scene for Orioles pitchers -- but they won't be

    FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- Don't repeat this too loudly, because we wouldn't want to do anything to chip away at legendary Leo Mazzone's reputation as a pitching guru, but ...

    Despite Mazzone's high-octane presence and dazzling new three-year, $1.5 million contract, beginning next week, Bugs Bunny or Yosemite Sam could do the same job with the Orioles rotation here in camp as the former Atlanta pitching coach.

    That's because four-fifths of that rotation likely no longer will be here.

    They'll be on their way to pitch for Mexico ... and the Dominican Republic ... and Canada ... and ...

    No team will be hit as hard by the World Baseball Classic as the Orioles, whose camp will be blown apart when they supply 12 different players from their 40-man roster to seven different countries
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  21. #321
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksphan
    Good thing the O's got that fancy new pitching coach...

    http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9262021/rss

    [/size][/font]
    One more reason to think that the whole WBC should exclude MLB players.

    Why can't all these teams just use their own players who actually play there, rather than MLB players? This whole March thing is crazy.
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  22. #322
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    I just don't think DC fans are going to stick with the Nats long-term. Once the novelty wears off (and I think it already has) attendance is going to drop.
    Yep, looks like the novelty has worn off:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro...3418-4177r.htm
    Chartese Burnett, the team's vice president of communications, said more than 37,000 single-game tickets were sold in the first hour at the box office, online and by telephone.

    "The turnout was more than expected, and it rivals last year, when we sold 50,000 [single-game] tickets in six hours," Miss Burnett said.

    By late afternoon, she said, the team had sold more than 50,000 tickets and was well ahead of last year's pace.
    Could I interest you in some tasty crow, Why Not?
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  23. #323
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz
    Yep, looks like the novelty has worn off:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro...3418-4177r.htm

    Could I interest you in some tasty crow, Why Not?
    Not yet. Long-term means long-term, not the first day of single-game ticket sales for the second season.

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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    Not yet. Long-term means long-term, not the first day of single-game ticket sales for the second season.
    Ten years from now when the Nats are leading the NL in attendance, Why Not? will come on here and tell us it's only a matter of time before there's a drop off and the fans lost interest.

  25. #325
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    Re: Angelos: Orioles Tough Times Over

    Quote Originally Posted by Why Not?
    Not yet. Long-term means long-term, not the first day of single-game ticket sales for the second season.
    Agreed, but you also said that you think the novelty has already worn off. As evidenced by the amount of tickets sold yesterday, I don't think that is the case (and keep in mind they sold this many tickets with very little marketing and still no owner or stadium agreement in place). There is still a lot of interest and excitement around the team, for now. Now if MLB rejects the city council's lease agreement this Tuesday and the sale of the team is delayed even further, I will start to get concerned about how much longer fans in this area will hold their interest with the future of the team in doubt.

    EDIT: MLB just approved the lease. I'll post a link to the article in the Nationals Thread.
    Last edited by NelsonMuntz; 03-05-06 at 07:31 PM.
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