The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Yankees Empire]

The positive correlation between winning percentage and payroll is a mathematical certainty, not really open to debate.
A link to a statistical analyis was posted to this study by Why Not a month or so ago.

Nobody has suggested that payroll size is not an advantage. And yet, it's been pointed out repeatedly that every year, a number of teams outperform their higher-spending counterparts. This occurs with a similar amount of frequency per year and with a similar number of teams per year. Instead of addressing this, you dismiss this phenomenon as "exceptions" without providing evidence.

Let me put it this way. The Orioles could obtain the best possible owner, the best possible GM, and the best scouting system. And we would still be at a disadvantage to the Yankees, who have more than twice as much money to spend each year, based upon revenue flow. And the Red Sox are spending 50% more than the O's so the O's would still be at a disadvantage to them.

If anything, this should compel the Orioles to become the gold standard in scouting and player development. Until such time as the Orioles' own ship is in order, you can't definitively say the degree to which the Yankees and Red Sox payrolls are genuine advantages. You can't rationally blame external causes of problems until internal causes have been eliminated or significantly curtailed.

The importance of payroll cannot be overestimated. Frankly, any team with as much of a payroll advantage as the Yankees have should never miss the playoffs. And they haven't for 12 straight years, going on 13.

And yet, you conveniently ignore the National League West where, based on your ideas, the Los Angeles Dodgers should win that division in a cakewalk year after year, owing to the large payroll advantage they hold over San Diego, Colorado, and Arizona. And yet, despite this advantage, the Dodgers DO NOT dominate this division year after year. Why is that?

You overstimate the importance of payroll with regularity.

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

Right, because it's easier to point to others as to why things are in a bad state ("fix" MLB economic system) than it is to look in the mirror and become accountable to oneself (O's personnel decisions). Ah, the blessings of maturity!

[hardrain]

O's are just 2 games out from having the worst record in all of baseball...

Here's hoping

[yanksphan]

O's are just 2 games out from having the worst record in all of baseball...

Here's hoping

Well, they do have the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball.

[Gator's Shadow]

Therefore it is far more important for me to fix the MLB economic system so that it is more of an even playing field , rather than to moan and groan about the O's not making all the right personnel decisions. Because fixing the system is far more important for the O's long term success.

Well, there is never going to be a completely even playing field in terms of revenue and/or payroll, so you may as well just give up, stop caring, and give us all a break. There may be some continued tinkering with the current system to redistribute revenues, and possibly, at some point, we may even see a salary cap (which will most certainly be higher than what at least 75% of the teams will actualy spend, if there ever is one). So, if your concern is "fixing the system", as you say, to your liking, its not going to happen.

Or, you could, as a fan, be pressuring your team to make management changes and improve its decisionmaking process NOW, in order that the team begin to be competitive even if the playing field is not "level, (like it ever was) the way numerous other small market teams, including the As, Twins, Marlins (to a degree), Brewers, Indians, Diamondbacks, and Padres have.

[Gator's Shadow]

I don't think anyone disagrees that more money = an advantage. What people disagree with is your assertion that THIS is the Orioles problem, when clearly it's due to an inept management group. The Orioles are arguably the worst team in the majors, yet they have a higher payroll than 20 other teams. Money hasn't helped them.

You need to face the fact that your owner and his staff are horrible at running a baseball franchise.

[aeromac76]

Posted this earlier, way earlier, in this thread, and could not help but think this needs a reappearance..

I know the slaray cap debate rages on, and until one happens in baseball, I guess we will never know who is right..

But we can look to other sports to see some evidence..

I will go to hockey, as I am a huge Rangers fan..
The Rangers won in 1994, and were probably good up until 1996 or 1997, and then went completely into the tank.

This with no salary cap and with the league's highest payroll and checkbook.
How many years of no playoffs and dissapointing teams?

Then the lockout and the salary cap. Since then, the Rangers have emerged to be a league power again. Two straight exhilirating seasons ending with the playoffs as part of the schedule, and last year a glorious playoff run.
This year, many have them winning the cup or at least seriously vying for it.
Luck? Maybe.. Timing? Perhaps..

But maybe it is because it forced the front office to actually think about things and start making rational moves and use their resources to do things other than sign the most high profile free agents..


I would argue a few things from this, a salary cap would HELP the Yankees, and would actually create more distance between them and the other teams, and I won't say so without providing some beliefs..

1) In 2005 the season seemed doomed, until Wang and Cano saved it. Last year Melky, this year, Hughes, Chamberlain, Edwar and the kids mentioned above yet again. Yet the high priced free agents have probably kept some of these kids down too long and are probably keeping some others down.
I know I'd rather see Ian Kennedy than Mike Mussina every 5th day.

2) The farm system of the Yankees is as good as it gets. The team is using its massive resources to do things other than sign free agents. The team is obviously loaded with very good talent evaluators and is making very good decisions. This will not change, cap or no, and in essence, a cap would probably force more of these talented youngsters onto the MLB roster instead of some of the guys we have now who came here because of a big checkbook. The roster as it is now in NY has more guys I love to see who make very little than the guys who make a lot. Any cap would mean we could not sign the luxury items like Farnsworth, Pavano, Jaret Wright, Mike Myers et al. It would not be low enough to prevent keeping guys like Jeter or Arod. If we were able to dump the aforementioned guys in favor of the kids we are beginning to see, that would spell doom, not glee, for the rest of the league.

3) Decisions decisions decisions. The Yankees have developers oodles of young talent again, and have shown they are very good at it. Other teams still are not, and anyone arguing the Yankees get the best young players because of money or signability issues, fine, but a hard MLB payroll cap would not do anything about this. We'd still be able to develop and draft the way we have been, which, as we are seeing now, is better than everyone else. Restraining impulse buys, a Yankee tradition, is not good for the rest of the league. Most of these impulse buys right now are guys whom we Yankee fans would love to redo..

4) Go back to the dynasty years and see what got us those rings. A few mid level free agents and one or two big ones, some smart trades, and a slew of homegrown all star, perhaps hall of fame, talent. Once we started blowing the payroll up, we made the playoffs but stopped winning the whole thing.

In short, I think payroll concerns are not completely invalid, but they do not make up for poor decisions by other clubs and as seen here, do not constitute the lion's share of the reason why the Yankees have been baseball's model franchise for so many years.
I doubt there will be a cap ever, union will walk off the job, but if there was, some people would find a rude awakening, seeing how already good managed teams could get even better..

[NYDCYankee]

Jay Gibbons sticks needles in his butt.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...steroids.0456/

[Lucen]

Jay Gibbons sticks needles in his butt.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...steroids.0456/

That's so poignant... almost poetical...

[cupcollector99]

Jay Gibbons sticks needles in his butt.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...steroids.0456/

Somehow, he was doing this because the team is facing income inequity and he had to do it to level the playing field.

[Lucen]

Somehow, he was doing this because the team is facing income inequity and he had to do it to level the playing field.

The Yankees and Red Sox have the money to provide their players with better delivery systems than needles.

[NYDCYankee]

The Yankees and Red Sox have the money to provide their players with better delivery systems than needles.

And masking agents for their drugs.

[aeromac76]

The Yankees and Red Sox have the money to provide their players with better delivery systems than needles.

Oh yeah!!
Osmosis!!!

[#1PaFan]

Congrats to Peter's O's. They just clinched a losing record for the season. You're tied with Tampa with 61 wins. But hey, you're two games up on them in the loss column!! WooHoo!

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Congrats to Peter's O's. They just clinched a losing record for the season. You're tied with Tampa with 61 wins. But hey, you're two games up on them in the loss column!! WooHoo!

Not only that, since this thread was started with bobby jr's immortal optimism, the O's, despite Angelos' pledge and bobby's faith in said pledge, have only gotten worse than they were in 2005 (barring a stunning undefeated run the rest of the way), and are on pace to have gotten progressively worse each season. One can only wait with baited breath for Angelos' next proclamation of future success.

As an Oriole fan, this has been a tough year. But I am greatly encouraged by the statement that Peter Angelos put out yesterday. I am glad Mr. Angelos has spoken out and promised a bright future, and this was definitely needed at this time in the history of the Baltimore Orioles.

"We appreciate the fans' support [during the tough times]," he said. "And we're going to demonstrate our appreciation by winning."

[Cuban Connection]

It's funny how the Daniel Cabrera-Sandy Koufax comparsions haven't been made since spring training or early April. I wonder why?

[#1PaFan]

The O's staff fired a 5 hit shutout yesterday. They could very well be turning their season around!!!

[Lucen]

The O's staff fired a 5 hit shutout yesterday. They could very well be turning their season around!!!

If the Red Sox and Yankees didn't lead the league in payroll, it would have been a complete game no hitter. Take out the Mets, Dodgers, Angels and Cubs and it was a perfect game.

[YankeePride1967]

If the Red Sox and Yankees didn't lead the league in payroll, it would have been a complete game no hitter. Take out the Mets, Dodgers, Angels and Cubs and it was a perfect game.

I'm not sure you should declare that yet without consulting some members on some TB, Marlin and Royal forums first.

[#1PaFan]

HEY!!! Make all the snide, snotty comments you want, Lucen & GoRocket!!! Peter's O's just might win 68-70 games this year!!! NO WAY the Orioles lose 100 games THIS year!!!!!!! WooHoo!!!!!

Won't YOU GUYS feel like effin' Idiots then?!?! Dumbasses.

[bobby jr]

And masking agents for their drugs.

Your words not mine. I have heard talk that the "big market, big name" players will never be exposed by being caught. That MLB wouldn't let that happen, too much money involved. Don't know if there is any truth to this or not.

[Mark19]

Your words not mine. I have heard talk that the "big market, big name" players will never be exposed by being caught. That MLB wouldn't let that happen, too much money involved. Don't know if there is any truth to this or not.

Yeah, who has ever heard of Bonds, Sheffield or Giambi?

It is all one big conspiracy against the Orioles!

[bobby jr]

Yeah, who has ever heard of Bonds, Sheffield or Giambi?

It is all one big conspiracy against the Orioles!

Bonds and Giambi, They were not "caught" by MLB testing they were caught by the Balco scandal. Also Bonds hasn't played for a really big market team. And didn't Sheffield's troubles come before he joined the Yanks?

[bobby jr]

All I have left to say to Junior is "Cha-Ching!!"

The summer is coming to an end, Junior and each day that goes by, your O's keep losing ground to the Jays.

If the season ended right now, you'd owe this site $24! I hope you are out there mowing some lawns, little fella!!! You're going to owe Jim Frasch some bucks!

BTW, The O's 2007 Payroll is 10th in the Majors at $95,107,807*

The Blue Jays, which are currently 12 wins better than your buddy Peter's team, IN THE SAME DIVISION, are 17th in Payroll in the Majors at $71,915,000.*

How is it possible that the Jays are that far ahead of The Peter's O's? That have a much lower payroll than the O's AND they are in the same division as those evil Yankees and Red Sox.

Well, hopefully you keep your word and honor our bet at the end of the season, Junior. Just consider your money paid to this site as yet another lesson. Hopefully, one day, you will GET IT!

But I doubt it.

*http://blog.sportscolumn.com/story/2007/4/9/1367/60158

Outside of the Red Sox, the Orioles added the most in payroll this year with an additional $22.5M. Their $95M 2007 payroll puts the Orioles at #10 on the list.

Don't count your chickens before they are hatched. If the O's don't go, neither does Toronto.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270914114

TORONTO (AP) -- Brian Burres pitched seven shutout innings to win for the first time since July 28, leading the Baltimore Orioles to a 6-2 victory over the Toronto Blue Jays on Friday night.

Brian Roberts homered for Baltimore, which won back-to-back games for the first time since Aug. 14-15 and came within three outs of recording consecutive shutouts for the first time this season.

The loss, Toronto's sixth in seven games, eliminated the Blue Jays from contention in the AL East. Toronto has scored 17 runs in its past seven games

[Mark19]

Bonds and Giambi, They were not "caught" by MLB testing they were caught by the Balco scandal. Also Bonds hasn't played for a really big market team. And didn't Sheffield's troubles come before he joined the Yanks?

Was Gibbons "caught by MLB"?

No, it is all speculation and rumor. The only reason you are sore is that he juiced but wasn't any good. Unlike Palmeiro, Gibbons was consistently awful.

Rick Ankiel is the feel good story of the season, if MLB really was hiding positive tests by prominent players, would they really let this one slip?

[#1PaFan]

Don't count your chickens before they are hatched. If the O's don't go, neither does Toronto.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=270914114

TORONTO (AP) -- Brian Burres pitched seven shutout innings to win for the first time since July 28, leading the Baltimore Orioles to a 6-2 victory over the Toronto Blue Jays on Friday night.

Brian Roberts homered for Baltimore, which won back-to-back games for the first time since Aug. 14-15 and came within three outs of recording consecutive shutouts for the first time this season.

The loss, Toronto's sixth in seven games, eliminated the Blue Jays from contention in the AL East. Toronto has scored 17 runs in its past seven games

I'm not sure what your point is, Junior. Nice game by the O's tonight, though:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/gamece...070915_BAL@TOR

Once again, your terrible team is 11 games behind the Jays. That translates to $22 out of your purse, little fella!