Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35
  1. #1
    NYYF Triple Crown

    CyYoung4Vazquez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UES

    To Patient

    One problem with the hitting is this team is too patient. Every at bat it seems like they work the count to 2 strikes and get in a position where the only option is to protect the plate. There were a ton of called strikes today. I wish they would get aggresive and start hacking away. Sure walks are great, but at times I think the hitters on this team look to walk each at bat. How many times did guys strike out looking. Although I think the home plate umpire was god awful, you still need to take the bat off your shoulders

  2. #2
    Released Outright rightfielder21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Pequannock, New Jersey (Birthplace of Derek Jeter)
    I would also make a more detailed title, before the mods see it...

  3. #3
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    CT
    Taking pitches does not mean you have a good eye, taking balls means you have a good eye. I think Jeter and Bernie are two that really need improvement in this area.
    Life is good!

  4. #4
    Lets Get This Dog To Hunt! 51BWilliams's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Central NY

    Re: To Patient

    Originally posted by CyYoung4Vazquez
    One problem with the hitting is this team is too patient. Every at bat it seems like they work the count to 2 strikes and get in a position where the only option is to protect the plate. There were a ton of called strikes today. I wish they would get aggresive and start hacking away. Sure walks are great, but at times I think the hitters on this team look to walk each at bat. How many times did guys strike out looking. Although I think the home plate umpire was god awful, you still need to take the bat off your shoulders
    I keep telling myself the same thing.. SOme of the pitches they take look quite hittable, but my fat arse is on the couch, not at the plate, so maybe I'm wrong.

    However, that patience is leading to a lot of walks. Too bad the above statements render those walks worthless..

    In any case, can these Yankees just get a hit w RISP, please? How many times have we had the bases loaded this year and hit into a DP, popup or watched strike 3 go over the plate?
    (Disclaimer: This post not subject to the irony of statements like 'Be careful what you wish for'. I will not be bitten in the ass without prior written consent)

  5. #5
    Yankee Stadium: 1923-2008 DiMaggio5CF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    E. 161 St. & Rivera Ave.
    It's great to be patient if the opposing pitcher isn't conistently around the strike zone.

    If you're facing a wild pitcher, being patient puts you in hitters counts where you can wait for a good pitch to hit and draws walks.

    But being patient against a pitcher who consistently throws first-pitch strikes is not really a good thing.

    You might force him to have a high pitch count and leave the game after six innings, but by hitting behind in the count, you've also ensured that you probably won't score any runs in those first six innings and you will have to face the best in the opposing bullpen with no momentum going into the final third of the game.

    You should never help the opposing pitcher by swinging at bad pitches. But really having a strategy that revolves around being patient at the plate results having to hit from behind in the count.

    That's why I'm very much opposed to taking pitches or swinging early as a strategy. The very best way to ensure good hitting is to swing at pitches that you can hit hard and hold up on pitches that you can't; then with minor adjustments like protecting the plate with two strikes and making the pitcher throw a strike with a 3-0 count, and you've got the best way to score runs.

    There really is no strategy necessary. See the ball, hit the ball.

  6. #6
    Addicted Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bronx, NY
    to the thread-starter:

    Please, please familiarize yourself with Sabermetrics.

    At it's core lies one simple truism: The teams that score the most runs are not the teams with the highest batting average, but rather the teams with the most walks. That's a very simplistic explanation of Jamesian theory, but it holds true every time.

    The Yankees will score a ton of runs. Just like the teams of the past few years. That is not the issue. (Although I see no reason why Wilson plays for this team.) This issue is that the Red Sox are a better team. And when Nixon and Nomar return, they will be even better. We need to make moves. We need to get a reliever. We need to get a second baseman. And a starting pitcher would be ok.

  7. #7
    NYYF Triple Crown


    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Sabermetrics is find and all but I find the problem not just in those areas you listed (though IMO the team can do fine without needing more at this point other than starting pitching)

    But at this point in hitting, the patience at the plate is making people go up there seemingly to draw only a walk - instead patience at the plate is waiting for hte pitch to hit because your ultimate goal is to get that hit - a walk should be the other goal only if you can't get that pitch.

    What seems to be happening right now is this - our big hitters (#3-5) are up drawing walks, same for Matsui and Posada too wherever they bat.... but but when they do get on base the rest of the lineup doesn't bring them in and they don't bring each other in.

    What I think they need to do right now is get hits and get their average and hitting back into stroke before focusing on the walks. Walking is great but when the team is batting .200... not so great.

  8. #8
    Addicted Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Bronx, NY
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ChewieTobbacca


    What seems to be happening right now is this - our big hitters (#3-5) are up drawing walks, same for Matsui and Posada too wherever they bat.... but but when they do get on base the rest of the lineup doesn't bring them in and they don't bring each other in.


    You are wrong. There is nothing more you can ask for. Our team will hit with runners in scoring position. If the walk is there, take it. Bernie Williams will hit eventually and will drive the runs in. It's a good thing we have runners on base. It will happen soon.

    What I think they need to do right now is get hits and get their average and hitting back into stroke before focusing on the walks. Walking is great but when the team is batting .200... not so great.

    Ok, here is another truism for you: Batting Average means nothing. Nothing. It tells you nothing about a player's performance. On base percentage is astronomically more important.

  9. #9
    is there statistical evidence to back this sabermetrics stuff up?

  10. #10
    NYYF Triple Crown

    CyYoung4Vazquez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    UES
    Is it to hard to ask for a swinging strike out. Nothing is more frustrating than watching a guy look at a strike three. I believe it happened 7 times today. You can't hit a pitch you don't swing at.

  11. #11
    Released Outright Dave in MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Burtonsville, MD
    they took not because of patience, but because they were fooled. This team's approach was not as patient this week. They had too many short at bats. Arroyo had two 9 pitch innings. They are pressing offensively.

  12. #12
    Bring on October!! nyyfanatic85's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Where Word Travels Faster Than Light
    Originally posted by Dave in MD
    they took not because of patience, but because they were fooled. This team's approach was not as patient this week. They had too many short at bats. Arroyo had two 9 pitch innings. They are pressing offensively.
    The only thing I'm worried about is Oakland's starters messing them up even more.
    Global Warming and climate change hysteria could well represent the historical pinnacle of collective insanity.

  13. #13
    Originally posted by b. meachem
    Please, please familiarize yourself with Sabermetrics.

    At it's core lies one simple truism: The teams that score the most runs are not the teams with the highest batting average, but rather the teams with the most walks. That's a very simplistic explanation of Jamesian theory, but it holds true every time.
    2003:

    Yanks led the majors in walks.

    3 other teams scored more runs:

    Bos. with 64 less walks and a BA 18 points higher;

    Tor. with 138 less walks and a BA 8 points higher;

    Atl. with 139 less walks and a BA 13 points higher.

  14. #14
    Released Outright incarnadine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Right near old St. Patricks and NYC's oldest manhole cover
    Originally posted by nyyfanatic85
    The only thing I'm worried about is Oakland's starters messing them up even more.
    They're just pitchers, not thunderbolt hurling Olympians. They can be beat. It may be tougher to get hits, but I don't think they're going to be driven deeper into slumps by Mulder, Hudson, and Zito.

    (I'd be more flipped if they had to go up against a bunch of junkballers and knucklers, against whom it is tempting to change your hitting approach.)

  15. #15
    It's kind of interesting that last season some people were complaining that Down's "philosophy" was "too aggressive."

    This season some people are concerned that the team is "too patient."

    No matter who the hitting coach is, or what his "philosophy" is, it still comes down to the guys with the bats in their hands.

  16. #16
    Originally posted by suha
    is there statistical evidence to back this Sabermetrics stuff up?
    We have a great new forum dedicated to Sabermetrics. If you'd like to learn a little more about it, please check out some of the information here: http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...threadid=59485
    ~John

  17. #17
    NYYF MVP


    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Lake Worth, Florida
    DiMaggio5CF wrote: "That's why I'm very much opposed to taking pitches or swinging early as a strategy. The very best way to ensure good hitting is to swing at pitches that you can hit hard and hold up on pitches that you can't; then with minor adjustments like protecting the plate with two strikes and making the pitcher throw a strike with a 3-0 count, and you've got the best way to score runs."
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree wholeheartedly with this philosophy. Back when I played I went to the plate with the idea that I was going to swing at a pitch I thought I could hit unless I was asked to sacrifice bunt.

    This current team's whole approach appears to be to see if they can tire the pitcher out by taking a lot of pitches. It's not working. They are taking way too many strikes plus some umpires seemed to have widened their strike zone. This is not a "Paul O'Neill type" of team that can foul off would be strikes until getting a walk or a good pitch to hit.

    However ... I don't want to see them attack pitches like Sheffield tried to do by swinging with reckless abandon late in the game. I actually like the way ARod is batting right now. He'll take a curve ball strike and with two strikes on him, protect the plate. Jeter meanwhile is going to throw his back out leaning over the plate to get a look at STRIKE THREE! Never mind looking Derek ... swing that piece of lumber and forget about trying to work a walk out of the pitcher.

    With any kind of hitting we could have won the last two games from Boston.
    [B]Rocky Colavito was a colorful ballplayer that I would love to see in the Hall of Fame. He had a rifle of an arm and hit 374 lifetime home runs, none of them with a corked bat, either. He finished his career as a member of the New York Yankees and retired the same year as Mickey Mantle.[/B]

  18. #18
    Originally posted by b. meachem
    Please, please familiarize yourself with Sabermetrics.

    At it's core lies one simple truism: The teams that score the most runs are not the teams with the highest batting average, but rather the teams with the most walks. That's a very simplistic explanation of Jamesian theory, but it holds true every time.
    Sor far this season this is the correlation:

    Yanks in MLB:

    BB: 1st
    BA: 29th
    R: 22nd

    Yanks in AL:

    BB: 1st
    BA: 14th
    R: 12th

  19. #19
    Larry Walker's Fanclub Rocketman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Wall Street
    This is simply wrong. The "truism" that you speak of is that ON BASE PERCENTAGE generally correlates to runs scored. Rickey Henderson in his later years hit .230 but got on base at a .360 clip because of his walk totals. That made him a relatively serviceable player.

    However, walks alone don't make the player... it's times on base. If you hit .100 but walk 80 times a year, you're completely worthless and shouldn't be playing major league baseball. Right now Bernie Williams isn't even swinging the bat, and right now he's a liability as a result. Why is that? Eventually major league pitchers find out a hitter's weakness and then they exploit the hell out of it.

    There is such a thing as being too patient - it's just relatively rare.

    Originally posted by b. meachem
    to the thread-starter:

    Please, please familiarize yourself with Sabermetrics.

    At it's core lies one simple truism: The teams that score the most runs are not the teams with the highest batting average, but rather the teams with the most walks. That's a very simplistic explanation of Jamesian theory, but it holds true every time.

  20. #20
    NYYF Triple Crown


    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    The Little Apple, Kansas
    Originally posted by World Champions NYY
    It's kind of interesting that last season some people were complaining that Down's "philosophy" was "too aggressive."

    This season some people are concerned that the team is "too patient."
    Whether aggressive or patient, the hitter's objective is too get a pitch which he can drive. The key is to be selective. A hittable pitch might come on the first pitch or seventh pitch of an at-bat. The hitter needs to be ready for it whenever it comes.

  21. #21
    Originally posted by b. meachem
    to the thread-starter:

    Please, please familiarize yourself with Sabermetrics.

    At it's core lies one simple truism: The teams that score the most runs are not the teams with the highest batting average, but rather the teams with the most walks. That's a very simplistic explanation of Jamesian theory, but it holds true every time.
    Not true. Don't confuse walks with OBP. Jamesian theory tells us that the team that makes the least outs (OBP) has the highest POTENTIAL to score runs. Which is why drawing walks is good.

    But as has been said over and over again, taking fastballs over the plate isn't good plate discipline. It's not working the count. It's just poor approach.

  22. #22
    To take this a step further:

    Team/OBP Rank/Runs Rank
    Minnesota/1/2t
    Texas/2/2t
    Baltimore/3/5
    KC/4/6
    Detroit/5/1
    Cleveland/6/8
    Boston/7/9
    Chicago/8/7
    Oakland/9/10
    Seattle/10/12t
    TB/11/14
    Anaheim/12/4
    Yankees/13/12t
    Toronto/14/11

    So even OBP isn't an exact correlation. Sometimes a low OBP can temporarily made up for by single players performing extra well, or having a bunch of impatient power hitters which will unreliably score a lot of runs (Anaheim.)

    But walks in and of themselves aren't the key. Texas and Anaheim have the lowest walk totals of any AL team.

    Walks are a piece of the puzzle, they aren't the finished product. Better K/BB ratios and more balls hit the other way will help. Seems like every hitter (especially Sheffield) is trying to hit the cover off it every AB.

    For the most part though, this chart shows you that most teams score runs almost exactly in relation to their OBP rate, with an exception here or there. That will balance out as the season draws on.

  23. #23
    NYYF Cy Young


    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    New York City
    There have been many comments in the media and from players that with this lineup each player can "pass the baton" to someone just as good. Is it possible that they are all so busy trying to pass the baton and take their walks that none of them are as focused in getting the key hit? It somehow just doesn't seem to make sense that there are so many walks and so few hits!

  24. #24
    Addicted Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Troy, NY
    I think patience comes a lot from being a good hitter and being able to fall off really good pitches, the only team I get pissed off is when hitters take a called 3rd strike. If you can't judge what might be close to the zone with two strikes then thats a problem.

  25. #25
    Originally posted by CommerceComet
    Whether aggressive or patient, the hitter's objective is too get a pitch which he can drive. The key is to be selective. A hittable pitch might come on the first pitch or seventh pitch of an at-bat. The hitter needs to be ready for it whenever it comes.
    I agree. I was simply alluding to the fact that it's interesting that the attempt can be made to "explain" the offensive problems by such diametrically opposed theories. Last season the offensive problems were blamed by some on Down's "aggressive philosophy." This season some blame it on a "too patient approach."

    It seems odd that guys wouldn't hit as expected one season due to "overaggressiveness" supposedly preached by Down, and then wouldn't hit as expected the next season due to "over-patience". In such a case, perhaps the problem lies not with the "approach", but with the possibility that some of these guys may no longer be quite the hitters we'd like to believe they are.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts