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  1. #1
    Released Outright ACPS's Avatar
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    Possible explanation for Red Sox stellar home record

    Bosox pen forced to tune out

    BOSTON - For whatever reason the Red Sox had a TV monitor in their bullpen Wednesday, Devil Rays manager Lou Piniella had the umpires pull the plug.

    In the middle of the fourth inning, Piniella approached the umpires, and moments later second-base umpire Larry Vanover went to the bullpen and told the Sox to turn off the TV.

    "Put it this way, if you wanted to it's easy to get signs from the catcher that way," Piniella said. "I'm not saying they're doing it. I'm not insinuating anything. All I know is having a TV in the bullpen is not allowed or acceptable by league rules."

    The Sox claim they had written permission from Major League Baseball earlier this season to install the monitor and would provide a copy. "It's a little bit easier for our guys to see the game than it is from our bullpen position where it is," manager Grady Little said.

    But umpire crew chief Steve Rippley said he knew nothing of such a letter and planned to report the incident to MLB officials: "You can't have any electronics in the dugout or the bullpen. That's been a league rule forever."

    Accusations have floated for years that the Sox take advantage of the bullpen location in right-centerfield to relay information to their hitters on what pitch is coming, and their huge differential in home-road batting average this season - .319-.264 - has made it a hotter topic.

    How could they do it? A designated reliever could stand in full view of the hitter and put his arm in a certain position for a fastball and another for a breaking ball. A hitter could take a quick look as he readies for the pitch.

    On a less clandestine basis, Piniella said the TV also provides "a big advantage" for Boston relievers to be able to watch closely how hitters react to certain pitches.

    "It's not good in any way," veteran Al Martin said.

    Rays players noticed the monitor during the game, and when word got to Piniella he took action.

    "First of all, it's not legal," Piniella said. "Second of all, we don't have one in our bullpen. Our pitchers like to play Donkey Kong, too."

    www.sptimes.com/2003/09/1...to_t.shtml

  2. #2
    "First of all, it's not legal," Piniella said. "Second of all, we don't have one in our bullpen. Our pitchers like to play Donkey Kong, too."

  3. #3
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    Re: Possible explanation for Red Sox stellar home record

    Originally posted by ACPS


    The Sox claim they had written permission from Major League Baseball earlier this season to install the monitor and would provide a copy. "It's a little bit easier for our guys to see the game than it is from our bullpen position where it is," manager Grady Little said.

    But umpire crew chief Steve Rippley said he knew nothing of such a letter and planned to report the incident to MLB officials: "You can't have any electronics in the dugout or the bullpen. That's been a league rule forever."

    first of all -- LLLLOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!! Love that man!

    Secondly, if this written permission turns out to be false, that would be very interesting...although Bud is so in bed with Red Sox ownership, he may just back date one...although, if he allowed electronics in their bullpen, then he'd have to explain why...this could get very interesting...

  4. #4
    Movin' on Bub's Avatar
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    You would think that proving illegal signalling would be easy. All you would need is someone watching every one of the Sox staff in the pen, maybe using binoculars from the stands. If it hasn't been caught on tape or by planting investigators in the stands it's probably not happening.
    Let the kids play.

  5. #5
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    Well, if this is happening, then they're retarded.

    Firstly, there is a delay during live feeds, the pitch has already happened when you see it.

    Secondly, if they are watching the signs and then relaying them in somehow, why wouldn't they just have someone in the stands or someone in the offices with a walky talky or the like?

    Much ado about nothing.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Bub
    You would think that proving illegal signalling would be easy. All you would need is someone watching every one of the Sox staff in the pen, maybe using binoculars from the stands. If it hasn't been caught on tape or by planting investigators in the stands it's probably not happening.
    why would someone be looking for that if they didn't know they had a monitor in the pen until recently? plus, I don't think stealing signs is technically illegal, just bad sportsmanship -- but doing it with electronic enhancement would be illegal...I think

    reminds me of that wind blowing equipment for the Twins...didn't they find that earlier this year?

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by yecul
    Well, if this is happening, then they're retarded.

    Firstly, there is a delay during live feeds, the pitch has already happened when you see it.

    Secondly, if they are watching the signs and then relaying them in somehow, why wouldn't they just have someone in the stands or someone in the offices with a walky talky or the like?

    Much ado about nothing.
    I don't think it would be a broadcast TV, it's probably their own camera with a zoom and a closed-circuit monitor.

    I have a related question......what's to stop a home team from putting microphones in the opposition's dugout? If you could hear the manager & coaches planning their moves, wouldn't that help your team?

  8. #8
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    I suppose it would be possible, but the consequences would be pretty dire. I doubt any team/manager/player would want to be involved in something like that. Even stealing signs is taboo.

    They could have closed circuit TV and be watching a live feed of their own, but I'm not sure that was the case. Even if it was, how the heck do you relay signs into the manager/player in time for the hitter to adjust? The sign is made, accepted, and the pitch is throw pretty quickly. It just doesn't seem feasible.

  9. #9
    Like they said, all somebody has to do is position their body in a particular way out in the bullpen... all you need is to give a hitter a clue about what's coming. Reaction usually occurs after the pitch is thrown. If you have an idea of what's coming during the set/windup, it's a tangible advantage.

    Everyone knows that having a TV in the bullpen is illegal for this very reason. I cannot imagine that the Red Sox are unaware of that.

    Secondly, I read another more detailed article that said the pitchers use the monitor to determine the umps' strike zone before they come into the game - another advantage. An advantage that the TV-less visitors do not enjoy.

    Thirdly, I really want to see this letter. I wonder if they will ever produce it.

  10. #10
    Sox' TV a turn-off for Piniella
    By Michael Silverman
    Thursday, September 18, 2003

    When the Mariners and Yankees raised the specter of the Red Sox (stats, schedule) stealing signs at Fenway Park last month, the incident was brushed aside by the home team as nothing more than whining and frustration.

    Last night, the Devil Rays made a discovery that added more fuel to the fire.

    Just prior to the start of the bottom of the fourth inning of the Red Sox' 7-0 loss, Devil Rays manager Lou Piniella informed umpire crew chief Steve Rippley that the Red Sox had a TV monitor in their bullpen. Rippley walked out to the bullpen and asked that the monitor, which was tucked into a wall between the two bullpens, be turned off.

    Having TV sets on in bullpens or dugouts is forbidden. But the Red Sox, manager Grady Little said, had received dispensation from commissioner Bud Selig's office to install the TV set approximately six weeks ago.

    When Rippley was informed of this by Little, he did not give the OK for it to be turned back on. When told after the game that the Red Sox plan on producing the permission slip for Rippley and his crew today, the crew chief was not impressed.

    ``You can't have any electronic device in the dugouts or bullpen, that's been a league rule forever,'' said Rippley. ``Whether they're stealing signals, or seeing replays, I don't know. The letter will be nice to see, but I am going to file a report to my boss and I report to my boss, not the commissioner.''

    Rippley was unmoved about one Red Sox' explanation that the TV set is there to keep the relievers involved in the game because they are so far removed from the action.

    ``We've had people use walkie-talkies before - they'll use whatever they can to get whatever advantage they can,'' said Rippley.

    Piniella did not accuse the Red Sox of cheating. He did point out, however, that having a TV set in the Red Sox bullpen - and not the visitors' bullpen - certainly creates an opportunity for skullduggery.

    ``First of all, it's not legal and second of all, we don't have one in our bullpen,'' said Piniella. ``Our pitchers like to play Donkey Kong, too.''

    In all seriousness, Piniella said, ``It's illegal, and if you want, you could get signs from a catcher that way. I'm not saying they're doing it, I'm not insinuating anything. All I know is that having a TV in the bullpen is not allowable. . . . It gives the pitchers a big advantage coming into the game. They see the hitter and how he reacts to pitches. It's a big advantage.''

    Little explained that the TV set was installed because ``it is a little bit easier for those guys to see the game than it is from our bullpen position where it is.''

    Bullpen coach Euclides Rojas said the TV set helps the relievers see the game better and it also helps keep them more into the game.

    Red Sox reliever Alan Embree said some of the pitchers use the TV set ``so we can see where the pitches are in the strike zone.''

    Embree downplayed the idea that the discovery of the TV set would again raise cheating charges against the Red Sox.

    ``The guy (Devil Rays starter Victor Zambrano) was throwing a one-hitter and was up, 3-0, and Lou comes up with that?'' said Embree. ``I have nothing against Lou, but c'mon.''

    http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSo...g?articleid=16

  11. #11
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    Nevermind, please think what you want.

  12. #12

    Re: Re: Possible explanation for Red Sox stellar home record

    Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
    ...although Bud is so in bed with Red Sox ownership, he may just back date one...
    Really?

  13. #13
    I think it's even more sketchy if a letter does exist.

    You can't do it. It's a league rule. If it was waived for the Sox, the other teams have a right to be informed.

  14. #14
    Released Outright ACPS's Avatar
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    C'mon KC....just a little rule bending.....much ado about nothing....

  15. #15
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    Actually, you're probably right. In an elaborate scheme league officials, Red Sox management, and the players have devised a method for the bullpen pitchers/coaches to relay signs to the hitter tipping the pitch call.

    It's sounds too likely to NOT be true.

    Honestly, how else could Boston be performing well offensively? It's the only explanation.

  16. #16
    Nah, I doubt that the scheme is elaborate, or that any league officials are involved.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by yecul
    Actually, you're probably right. In an elaborate scheme league officials, Red Sox management, and the players have devised a method for the bullpen pitchers/coaches to relay signs to the hitter tipping the pitch call.

    It's sounds too likely to NOT be true.

    Honestly, how else could Boston be performing well offensively? It's the only explanation.
    I don't think that "the league" is "in on it", but you can't deny the possiblity that the Sox would steal signs. It's too easy and tempting. There has been more than one occasion where it's happened in the past - teams stealing signs using guys in center field, cameras, etc.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox were doing it. But even if they aren't, the rules are simple - no live video monitors in plain view of the players, coaches, etc.

  18. #18
    Released Outright ACPS's Avatar
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    Anyone know the Sox team batting avg. at Fenway?

  19. #19
    .319 home
    .264 road

    That's quite a differential. But, honestly, I won't think that they've been cheating until I see real, hard evidence.

  20. #20
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    If, as they claim, they do have a letter from league officials (Sandy Alderson specifically) allowing this, then, as others have insinuated, the league would have to be "in on it".

    Boston is destroying the ball at Fenway. Not sure what their average is at home, but it's quite good.

    Could they be stealing signs and all that? Sure. But, so could the Yankees.

    As Embree said, they were being 1 hit and shut out when they were called on it. If they were stealing signs, then they're pretty crappy at doing it, huh?

  21. #21
    Sure, the Yankees could be doing it... but you have to find some rule-breaking first. At the very least, the Red Sox have a TV in there against league rules. Secondly, it gives them an advantage of studying the ump's strike zone and the hitter's up-close.

    And just because in a given game the supposed advantage didn't work out (7-0), doesn't mean there isn't an advantage over the course of a season. All it takes is a game here, and a game there.

    But I want to wait to see what comes out.

  22. #22
    I guess we now know which team is really the Evil Empire.

  23. #23
    Released Outright rightfielder21's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rich
    I guess we now know which team is really the Evil Empire.

  24. #24
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    >>>>>
    but you have to find some rule-breaking first. At the very least, the Red Sox have a TV in there against league rules. Secondly, it gives them an advantage of studying the ump's strike zone and the hitter's up-close.
    >>>>>

    Ahh, but if they were given permission to do this then there would be no rule breaking.

    Of course, if no permission was given, then who knows...

  25. #25
    I love Lou. He just cracks me up.

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