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  1. #1
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Relief/Starting pitching

    I know we had some debates on this last year, how is this going to work, exactly?

    Should i move Wakefield to my pen now?
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  2. #2
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    yeah "we" did have some issues re some teams using starters for closers last seas...

    from what i can tell, the response has been to devalue starters w/ the new scoring... guess i didn't get back soon enough to really discuss the impact of these changes... oh well, i'll adapt...

    bashers blow...

    p.s. hey boz wanna trade?

  3. #3
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    Boz, the rule is that you lose 10 points for every start OVER 1 that was made in your bullpen. So if a reliever gets called up for a spot-start on short notice, then it shouldn't hurt you - but if you stock your bullpen full of starters, then they won't contribute all that much in terms of value.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  4. #4
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    dude, that's brutal. If a guy has two long-relief guys in his pen that get called up for starts, he's starting with a -10 even if they don't win any games.

    Kurt -- i rejected the trade, but i'm honestly still thinking it over. Boone will give me a lot more points at 2B, but the fall-off from Green to Edgar isn't a small one -- not by a long shot.
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  5. #5
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    btw.. i thought we were going to play by the honor system. Meaning i don't put Wakefield in the pen, and whoever has Weaver doesn't put him in there, and everyone's honkey dorey.

    Oh well.. them's the rules!
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  6. #6
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    Will everyone please stop fighting. You're scaring me! ! !

  7. #7
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    Who wants. pitchers? I got pitchers. Who's got hitters? I need hitters.

  8. #8
    NYYF Legend

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    Originally posted by Bozidar
    dude, that's brutal. If a guy has two long-relief guys in his pen that get called up for starts, he's starting with a -10 even if they don't win any games.
    Not that brutal, surely. The average MLB team has one long reliever in the pen, so to put two in is immediately a silly move - you're just trying to blag the extra points rather than constructing a realistic pitching staff. Also, the odds of two long relievers simultaneously being called up are, I would say, very low indeed. How often does it happen to the average MLB team?

    I'd advise owners to construct their bullpens as an actual manager would - a closer, a set-up man, and a long reliever, or possibly a closer-less system like the Red Sox. Either way, if you fill your pen full of emergency starters, you're effectively emptying out your bullpen when they do start, leaving yourself with no relievers. So I think you can justify the penalty under baseball logic, and I think it's a relatively elegant way of preventing abuse of the system.

    Other opinions?

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  9. #9
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Sax -- no other opinions needed, it's a closed issue. At first, it seemed a rather brutal penalty, but the likelyhood, as you pointed out, of it being needed isn't high.
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  10. #10
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by terry14420
    Will everyone please stop fighting. You're scaring me! ! !
    lighten up hon this is how we hash it out.. it's all love in here, kumbaya and all dat... (yo boz, junior is a beeeya__ name )

    yo sax you're anti lords rules will FAIL... i got my lawyers on the phone and they assure me an injunction to block opening day is forthcoming unless you restore the proper balance of picthing to hitting to our baseball universe...

    on a serious note mr commish, you know i got the most repsect for your efforts on our behalf, (even though i still didn't get my lousy cracker jack world series rings from last seas or a post post seas exclusive review of my breathtaking march thru our inauggural bronx-bombers.com (sue me) campaign )

    i'm too late to offer my limited .02cents on this topic but had it been earlier i doubt i would have supported diluting the value of pitching... i know i talked some smack to boz last seas, (honestly i can't help it, he's such a easy target ), but personally i didn't really have a hang-up w/ boz and several other team's strategy last year... and considerring this year we got more teams it would have been unteneble to impose a a closer mandate on the relief slot... but just the same i'm not sure i honestly appreciate the rationale here... not saying your wrong and i'm right, but just i don't follow, (too much smokes not enough coffee makes da kid a lil bit slow )

    but hey, c'est la vie selig, er sax, what's done is done, i'll fall in line under your admirable stewardship of our young emerging league and i ain't gonna bitch no mores... (until the offseas if i get robbed... )

  11. #11
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    I don't get it and quit callin' me hon or I'll make you my honey.

  12. #12
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Terry is a guy, kurt (L O L A, lola, lo lo lo la lola..)
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  13. #13
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by terry14420
    I don't get it and quit callin' me hon or I'll make you my honey.
    whoops my bad brotha...

    yo boz ya tink we can get an age and gender identifier next to our avatars?

  14. #14
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ansky39
    whoops my bad brotha...

    yo boz ya tink we can get an age and gender identifier next to our avatars?


    Sure, sweetheart.
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  15. #15
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    Blame my parents for the girl's name. My description would read big, old and ugly and that would be very accurate.

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by terry14420
    Blame my parents for the girl's name. My description would read big, old and ugly and that would be very accurate.

    The temptation to chime in here is almost overwhelming....

  17. #17
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    Ansky,

    I'll have a crack at explaining the reasoning behind the regulations affecting starting pitchers.

    First, I think it's fair to say that starters were a little overpowered in last year's league. Several had weekly averages of over 30 points, according to my year-end analysis, while only one hitter had an average over 25. (Bonds - who else?) Given that the highest-paid players in baseball are Alex Rodriguez, followed by Manny Ramirez, Derek Jeter, and Jason Giambi, it seemed counter-intuitive to have a system in which pitchers contributed more points than hitters. Mike Mussina had a "down-year" in 2002, but still averaged around 25 points per week. Miguel Tejada had a great year, but still didn't crack 25 points per week.

    Now, why was this? Partly, in my opinion, it was due to the points system, in which IP and strikeouts were valued to the extent that a poor pitching performance could be elevated to 20 points' worth or more by a starter going a couple of extra batters, and whiffing more men than usual. In other words, mediocrity was over-rewarded when a starter was durable, and struck out a lot of men. To counteract this, we reduced the points available for "non-core" pitching categories, to ensure that a pitcher's primary duty is to WIN, not to bumble his way through eight bad innings. We also introduced a punishment for a loss - a pitcher who is dominating will not be hurt that much by -5 points, but a pitcher who struggles will now be forced to live with it. This should prevent owners stocking up on mediocre starters just for the occasional ten points for a win.

    This over-valuing of starters was also reflected in the bullpen, where owners tended to look for starters who could qualify in relief, rather than relievers. Bona fide closers were sitting on the waiver wire while fairly unimpressive starters where churning out mediocre innings. Now, this clearly doesn't reflect actual baseball - an owner NEEDS a bullpen, partly to get the tough outs, partly to prevent morale-sapping late losses, and partly to give a batter a different look during a nine-inning game. To encourage owners to manage a fantasy team as if it was a real team, we could have put a hard cap on the innings pitched per team - but that's an incredibly fiddly device that wouldn't be totally effective anyway, because of the league structure - weeks off, playoff rounds, etc. It would be highly problematic having to micro-manage to such an extent.

    Instead, it seemed best to penalise an owner who went without a bullpen (in effect) in terms of points. Penalising multiple starts out of the bullpen should prevent the IP points-racking, while encouraging owners to look for relievers who can actually get hitters out, rather than filling in innings during a loss. The best relievers will therefore regain their value. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to see Darren Oliver pitching instead of Francisco Rodriguez just because he tends to go more innings - Oliver is simply not as good a pitcher, and I think fantasy baseball should reward owners who sign good pitchers in a way that reflects reality, rather than the owners who grab the first available starter whose arm doesn't drop off after 5 innings.

    Of course, you can play through the -10 points "fine" if you like. It may benefit you in the long run. And the system is designed to avoid penalising spot starts by long relievers, because clearly that's a situation that arises in real life. But I don't see how owners fighting over the dregs of the starter pool while great relievers sit idle is a fair reflection of real baseball, and the rules were altered to take that into consideration. Judging by the debate last year, plenty of owners would rather have relievers in the bullpen.

    Anyway, we'll see how it works this year. It may fail. But I think it's worth a try, and I don't think last season (where hardly any non-closers were signed) was a fair reflection of actual baseball. In the end, I think we'd all prefer fantasy baseball to be as close to the real thing as possible, and I hope you're happy to put up with this as a one-year experiment.

    So thanks for your feedback, and enjoy the season.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  18. #18
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    I still don't understand all these rules. They seem so unnecessary. Let's just all have fun. First one to the water cooler gets a big fat sloppy kiss.

  19. #19
    B-B.com Bench Coach patrick.o's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bozidar
    (L O L A, lola, lo lo lo la lola..)
    Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley

  20. #20
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saxmania
    Ansky,

    I'll have a crack at explaining the reasoning behind the regulations affecting starting pitchers.

    First, I think it's fair to say that starters were a little overpowered in last year's league. Several had weekly averages of over 30 points, according to my year-end analysis, while only one hitter had an average over 25. (Bonds - who else?) Given that the highest-paid players in baseball are Alex Rodriguez, followed by Manny Ramirez, Derek Jeter, and Jason Giambi, it seemed counter-intuitive to have a system in which pitchers contributed more points than hitters. Mike Mussina had a "down-year" in 2002, but still averaged around 25 points per week. Miguel Tejada had a great year, but still didn't crack 25 points per week.
    Granted sir, chicks and owners dig the long ball, but I wouldn’t want to use their twisted logic as a model for our precious pastime... the truth is despite long ball happy owners penchant for overpaying 1/9th of their lineup w/ primary emphasis on the gate as opposed to actual game, (see exhibit hicks), the fact is the overall impact of a position player, be it tejada, arod or anyone not named bonds is relatively minimal compared to a pitcher, any pitcher... the pitcher is the first line of defense the one player on the team who’s efforts are directly related to wins and losses… his value to a team’s fortunes cannot be overstated, (see exhibit diamondbacks or yanks last season in the post)… diminishing the value of a pitcher to the levels of a position player in effect undermines one of the core aspects of the game, that pitchin wins.. I’m currently involved in only 7 leagues on various softwares, somelive some rotisserie, yada yada… I say only cause the past couple years I’ve avg’d 10 teams a seas and never once have seen a l;eague set up where pitchers lose points for losses, much less losing 5 whole points… that’s harsh imho sir.. look at what curt and randy can do w/ a patchwork offense in Arizona… the angels may have a fine team oriented game on offense, but make no mistake but for their rotation there is no world series.. alotta people made noise about tajada last seas and even these pencil necks in the press got caught up in the hype, but make no mistake sir, the a’s rotation spearheded by zito, mulder and Hudson was and continues to be the primary reason for their success…

    Now, why was this? Partly, in my opinion, it was due to the points system, in which IP and strikeouts were valued to the extent that a poor pitching performance could be elevated to 20 points' worth or more by a starter going a couple of extra batters, and whiffing more men than usual. In other words, mediocrity was over-rewarded when a starter was durable, and struck out a lot of men. To counteract this, we reduced the points available for "non-core" pitching categories, to ensure that a pitcher's primary duty is to WIN, not to bumble his way through eight bad innings. We also introduced a punishment for a loss - a pitcher who is dominating will not be hurt that much by -5 points, but a pitcher who struggles will now be forced to live with it. This should prevent owners stocking up on mediocre starters just for the occasional ten points for a win.
    I honestly do not think one can overestimate the value of a pitcher whether it’s his ability to go long into games as quantified by the ip metric, or his ability to get opposing batters out quickly therein mitigating the amount of pitches thrown as tracked by the k metric…

    This over-valuing of starters was also reflected in the bullpen, where owners tended to look for starters who could qualify in relief, rather than relievers. Bona fide closers were sitting on the waiver wire while fairly unimpressive starters where churning out mediocre innings. Now, this clearly doesn't reflect actual baseball - an owner NEEDS a bullpen, partly to get the tough outs, partly to prevent morale-sapping late losses, and partly to give a batter a different look during a nine-inning game. To encourage owners to manage a fantasy team as if it was a real team, we could have put a hard cap on the innings pitched per team - but that's an incredibly fiddly device that wouldn't be totally effective anyway, because of the league structure - weeks off, playoff rounds, etc. It would be highly problematic having to micro-manage to such an extent.


    Instead, it seemed best to penalise an owner who went without a bullpen (in effect) in terms of points. Penalising multiple starts out of the bullpen should prevent the IP points-racking, while encouraging owners to look for relievers who can actually get hitters out, rather than filling in innings during a loss. The best relievers will therefore regain their value. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to see Darren Oliver pitching instead of Francisco Rodriguez just because he tends to go more innings - Oliver is simply not as good a pitcher, and I think fantasy baseball should reward owners who sign good pitchers in a way that reflects reality, rather than the owners who grab the first available starter whose arm doesn't drop off after 5 innings.

    Of course, you can play through the -10 points "fine" if you like. It may benefit you in the long run. And the system is designed to avoid penalising spot starts by long relievers, because clearly that's a situation that arises in real life. But I don't see how owners fighting over the dregs of the starter pool while great relievers sit idle is a fair reflection of real baseball, and the rules were altered to take that into consideration. Judging by the debate last year, plenty of owners would rather have relievers in the bullpen.
    Granted sir, some teams chose to go counter to the spirit of the actual game and employ starters in their pen, but I just have a problem w/ seeing a player and thus team lose points… the essence of this game is built on a framework of accumulating more points than your opponent and mitigating how many points your opponent scores against you... you’re in effect adding a third element, and if I may say disturbing a delicate equilibrium that has existed since 1900’s by actually deducting points… it’s no longer just score more and win or prevent your opponent from scoring as much and win.. now it’s score more and mitigate deductions… no offense but this is turning into the tax code... I dunno I just have a philosophical issue w/ the powers that be taking away points.. it’s not baseball, heck it’s un-American even… I dunno sax, the more I think about it the more I know this is going away from the game despite your very valid comments on teams misuse of their pens… couldn’t we just impose a gentleman’s agreement among owners not to that you can only use starters as relievers if they have relieved once in the last two weeks or so… [

    Anyway, we'll see how it works this year. It may fail. But I think it's worth a try, and I don't think last season (where hardly any non-closers were signed) was a fair reflection of actual baseball. In the end, I think we'd all prefer fantasy baseball to be as close to the real thing as possible, and I hope you're happy to put up with this as a one-year experiment.
    I dunno, I tend to disagree, but maybe I’m biased since I did win last year but really if the giants proved anything last seas was the value of serviceable innings eater starters.. in baseball pitchin wins, this is no myth… my daft strategy for the past couple seas has been to emphasize arms in every draft cognizant of this fact… I won 7 of 11 leagues last seas and and 5 of 9 the year before w/ this strategy… I don’t follow how penalizing a pitcher thru deductions for losses et al thus mitigating his impact brings any closer to the actual game that we love… like I said of all the leagues I’ve ever been in the one constant has been accurately reflecting the value of pitching relative to hitting… while I’m a gamer and will of course acquiesce to the rules of this particular league, imho there’s no need to reinvent the wheel here, no need to disturb the precious balance between the impact of quality arms relative to even the most sensational bats… one solid arm goes long way to determining a team’s fortunes as the first line of defense for that game and a guy who’s impact directly correlates to a team’s fortunes…

    That’s enough I’ve had my say and I will no resort to smack mode in an effort to defend my title in this offense “enhanced” pitching diminished nyyfans league… (jus’ don’t let none of me purists pals no I dared to disrupt the delicate balance of power of our precious national pastime )


    So thanks for your feedback, and enjoy the season.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania
    thanks fer hearin me out sax, i regret not getting back sooner so we could have discussed this at length earlier, but either way i will adapt to your approach as best i can and defend my title

    later pal
    Last edited by Ansky39; 03-18-03 at 01:57 PM.

  21. #21
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bozidar


    Sure, sweetheart.
    see whatta i mean, all this time you thought i was a she when really i'm a he...

    see how valuable a gender identifer could be... even a color or something so i know how i'm flamin... i don't like to flame girls...

    hey i hear basher picthers toss underhanded...

  22. #22
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ansky39
    couldn’t we just impose a gentleman’s agreement among owners not to that you can only use starters as relievers if they have relieved once in the last two weeks or so…
    I'd be all for that, it's what i thought we were going to do at the end of last season.
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  23. #23
    Let's Go Yankees!!! Bozidar's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ansky39
    hey i hear basher picthers toss underhanded...
    That's a flat-out lie!! (not that there's anything wrong with that..)

    Wakefield comes close though..
    "If your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

  24. #24
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    Tell ya what. It's a difficult subject, and one I don't want to have causing ill will, so how about this:

    Gentleman's agreement not to use starters in the bullpen. If any owner feels that another one is abusing this freedom, he can complain to a commissioner, and the penalty can be imposed IF the problem carries on. That okay? I'm not going to spend half an hour a week checking up on people.

    With regard to the deductions for losses and so on; yes, it's a difficult one, and I'm not 100% confident that it'll be definitively better than the previous year. But I'm still not convinced that just because most people don't do it, that it doesn't work. If anything, it increases the value of GOOD pitching, because it emphasizes the "keeping your team in the game" dynamic. I mean, if Curt Schilling goes 17-3, and Mike Mussina goes 16-11, Curt Schilling has been markedly better than Mike Mussina, because he has given his bullpen the chance to win some of those eight games. Mussina hasn't.

    I understand it may stick in the craw a little, but give it a try. If it doesn't work, hey, "wait 'til next year". I just think that the logic and the results of last year mean that it's at least worth a try.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania

  25. #25
    Released Outright Ansky39's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Saxmania
    Tell ya what. It's a difficult subject, and one I don't want to have causing ill will,
    i wish we could talk in person cause i think alot gets lost in the translation of written text.. there is absolutely no ill will intended at all on my behalf sax and i hope i didn't convey that.. it's just that i guess w/ my legal background, i've been trained to analyze things in black and white and lay out the facts, of course, as i see it.. on paper, or screen my responses may seem harsh or cold or even argumentitive, but that is not the case at all, i'm really just giving my take and regardless of the outcome, i'm here to have fun and play ball not beef...

    i will defer to you as you have invested more time than anyone could have imagined when we first elected you our commish, and imho have permormed quite ably, but just the same i like the discussion aspect that allows us an opportunity to express our ideas on how the league should operate... the only thing i love more than watching the game is discussing it... but seriously this is not that serious and once again sax, whatever you decide is a ok w/ me...

    so how about this:

    Gentleman's agreement not to use starters in the bullpen. If any owner feels that another one is abusing this freedom, he can complain to a commissioner, and the penalty can be imposed IF the problem carries on. That okay? I'm not going to spend half an hour a week checking up on people.
    kool beans...

    With regard to the deductions for losses and so on; yes, it's a difficult one, and I'm not 100% confident that it'll be definitively better than the previous year. But I'm still not convinced that just because most people don't do it, that it doesn't work. If anything, it increases the value of GOOD pitching, because it emphasizes the "keeping your team in the game" dynamic. I mean, if Curt Schilling goes 17-3, and Mike Mussina goes 16-11, Curt Schilling has been markedly better than Mike Mussina, because he has given his bullpen the chance to win some of those eight games. Mussina hasn't.

    I understand it may stick in the craw a little, but give it a try. If it doesn't work, hey, "wait 'til next year". I just think that the logic and the results of last year mean that it's at least worth a try.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania
    granted, but as i see it moose gave his team 1 less loss than shilling and in baseball team w/ most wins advances... so if both teams won 100 games moose's contribution to our success would be 1/100th less than shilling's... as presently construed in our league, moose's lossess would be deducted from our wins and the disparity between positive impact between the two disproportionately distorted...

    but c'est la vie sax, let's chalk it up to a difference of philosophy, and let's play ball...

    later,

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