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  1. #76

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dabomb2045 View Post
    How bad was Bobby Meachem? Everytime I look at the 1985 Yanks team stats, I cant help but think they win the ALE that year if they had just a competent shortstop.
    He was bad. I blame Andre Robertson for smashing his car on the westside highway.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  2. #77
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    He was bad. I blame Andre Robertson for smashing his car on the westside highway.
    Not that Andre Robertson was that good.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  3. #78
    Movin' on Bub's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    Not that Andre Robertson was that good.
    He would have been adequate for the time. He had good hands and a strong, accurate arm. Meacham was a defensive disaster....even Nunez is far superior...and he's shaky at best.
    Let the kids play.

  4. #79
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Very good glove, but lousy hitter - as bad as Fred Stanley, and that's hard to do.
    But Michael was the Master of the Hidden Ball Trick.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  5. #80
    My History. Your Tradition. JDPNYY's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But Michael was the Master of the Hidden Ball Trick.
    Absolutely. Along with Steve Hamilton's folly floater... two of my favorite recurring moments during those years.
    Complaining is a choice

  6. #81
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Battingly View Post
    He loved McCarthy, didn't like Stengel.
    Rizzuto's feelings about Stengel went back to when Scooter, still in high school, tried out for the Dodgers. Stengel told him to "go get a shoeshine box."

    He was also bitter about how Stengel dealt with releasing him.

    It was Old-Timers Day, and I was out taking pictures, as I did every year. The bat boy came over and told me that Casey Stengel and George Weiss wanted to see me in Stengel's office. It was the last day to add a player to the roster and have him eligible for the World Series. We were trading for Enos Slaughter because Stengel said we needed another outfielder, so we had to send someone down to make room on the roster.


    They asked me to read through the list of players and to check each player's eligibility, to see who we could let go. I sat there thinking that I was a veteran and they wanted my opinion. As we read through the list I pointed out a few players who I thought could be sent down, a pitcher we had hardly used and a catcher who had been in only nine games. But each time they said, 'No, we might need him.' We started to go through the list a second time, and then half way through it dawned on me.
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=12776757
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  7. #82
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Battingly View Post
    Me too, he was my all-time favorite Yankee announcer. I loved that man, he was a great human-being who loved life and loved people, and loved being a Yankee. More than any other voice, he was the voice of my youth, even now I can vividly recall my old room in my parents house, watching the Yankees on WPIX, Scooter, White and Messer (and later Murcer too), and how I would mute the game when Scooter went to do a few innings on the radio (WABC AM) as the Scooter would do in those days, just because I couldn't get enough of the Scooter. I also loved how he kept us younger Yankee fans connected to the past, to the dynasty years, always retelling stories about those teams and players from the McCarthy/Stengel era. He loved McCarthy, didn't like Stengel.
    great post.
    All the fat guys watch me & say to their wives, 'See, there's a fat guy doing okay. Bring me another beer. Mickey Lolich

  8. #83
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    He was bad. I blame Andre Robertson for smashing his car on the westside highway.

    All the fat guys watch me & say to their wives, 'See, there's a fat guy doing okay. Bring me another beer. Mickey Lolich

  9. #84
    Movin' on Bub's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    Absolutely. Along with Steve Hamilton's folly floater... two of my favorite recurring moments during those years.
    How fun was that when a big hitter swung right out of his shoes and missed the folly floater! We laughed until we cried. Of course now and then one got hit into orbit.
    Let the kids play.

  10. #85

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But Michael was the Master of the Hidden Ball Trick.
    If you could somehow transport Posada back in time and put him on a different team, how many times in one game could Michael get Posada out on the hidden ball trick?

  11. #86

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    I liked Dent.

    As bad as he might have been among the stars in that lineup....he was a definite upgrade over Fred Stanley.

  12. #87
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    How fun was that when a big hitter swung right out of his shoes and missed the folly floater! We laughed until we cried. Of course now and then one got hit into orbit.
    Dave LaRoche too!
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  13. #88
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But Michael was the Master of the Hidden Ball Trick.
    He absolutely was.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  14. #89
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Dave LaRoche too!
    I was at a doubleheader in 1981, sitting just a few rows behind the visitors' dugout, when LaRoche went after Gorman Thomas with his LaLob. You could see Thomas doing a slow burn, getting more and more frustrated with each pitch, finally striking out on a huge, from-the-heels swing. On his way back to the dugout, Thomas took off his helmet, tossed it up, swung - and finally made contact, smashing the helmet into pieces.

    The crowd went nuts. Great entertainment.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  15. #90

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Messerwhitescooter View Post

    great post.
    Thanks, and great screen name

    You know what I was thinking about after that post, what an amazing history lesson we received from watching those broadcasts. That was before the internet, when information about the past wasn't a goggle search and a click away. In those days there was only two ways to get a historical education, books or listening to the old-timers like Rizzuto and White, and they worked that stuff in to almost every game. It might just be a short story about Musial or DiMaggio to Teddy Ballgame and so many others, and you might not even realize what an education you were receiving in small bites, but if you watched them every night like many of us did, by the end of the season, over 162, you heard hundreds of those stories and got an invaluable education.

    Here's one example. A lot of times the old-timers from various teams would visit the booth because they were friendly with Scooter or White (or both), and this one game Tommy Henrich was in the booth and he was a GREAT story-teller, he just had a naturally funny way of telling stories, just his dialect was funny, so he tells Phil, and I'm paraphrasing him here:

    "You know who I ran into the other day, Ted Williams. He's still mad that we won all those championships and they didn't. I told him, I said, Ted, don't you know that we were scared to death of you guys. I'm not kidding, you guys were loaded, all-stars everywhere, so we never felt overconfident with you guys, we knew we had to be at our best or you would beat our brains in. You want to know the real reason why we won all the time and you didn't? Because your owner was too good to you guys. Our owner was cheap so we needed that World Series money, otherwise we couldn't get a new car or go on that vacation we had planned or put that new wing on the house. You know how I know you guys were too spoiled? If you looked in our players parking lot, it was mostly Chevrolets, but when we went up to Boston, you guys all had Cadillacs, the whole friggin' lot was filled with brand new Cadillacs!"
    "Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa." -- George M. Steinbrenner III

  16. #91
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But Michael was the Master of the Hidden Ball Trick.
    And his ERA as a pitcher was 0.00.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  17. #92
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    And his ERA as a pitcher was 0.00.
    So was Rocky Colavito's, and he flashed a gaudy 1.000 winning percentage as well.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #93
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    So was Rocky Colavito's, and he flashed a gaudy 1.000 winning percentage as well.
    They were the same week, as I recall. The Yankees had something like 3 doubleheaders in four days. We were probably lucky they didn't put a peanut vendor or two on the roster.

    Clarke/Gibbs/Cox/Kosko/Tresh/Pepitone.......good times, those.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  19. #94
    Rick Cerone's #10 is retired! The Yankee Captain's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Go back to the 60's, 70's and early 80's and look at all the middle infielder stats. Back then these guys were glove first, hit second guys.

    Geesh, does anybody remember Wayne Tolleson starting over 100 games for us in 1987? Dude had a .547 OPS and he played in over 120 games for us. .547!

  20. #95

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Yankee Captain View Post
    Go back to the 60's, 70's and early 80's and look at all the middle infielder stats. Back then these guys were glove first, hit second guys.

    Geesh, does anybody remember Wayne Tolleson starting over 100 games for us in 1987? Dude had a .547 OPS and he played in over 120 games for us. .547!
    I have to think that maybe the original question is a bit tongue in cheek, because (as others have said), Dent was definitely not a horrible player. Look at his WAR, his runner up Rookie of the Year in 1974, his 3 All-Star selections and his ranking against the rest of MLB shortstops during his career...

    He was a really solid player, given what was expected out of shortstops at the time.

    And, yeah, I'll sound like an old man, but I kind of miss the game that was when a guy like Dent was considered a very solid player.

  21. #96
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I was at a doubleheader in 1981, sitting just a few rows behind the visitors' dugout, when LaRoche went after Gorman Thomas with his LaLob. You could see Thomas doing a slow burn, getting more and more frustrated with each pitch, finally striking out on a huge, from-the-heels swing. On his way back to the dugout, Thomas took off his helmet, tossed it up, swung - and finally made contact, smashing the helmet into pieces.

    The crowd went nuts. Great entertainment.
    Cool story - thanks for sharing. You may enjoy this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdyT0LHNSfg

    I remember Gorman Thomas very well - a very undervalued player during his peak years (1978-82) IMO. Definitely top-5 OF in the AL during that time.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  22. #97
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Cool story - thanks for sharing. You may enjoy this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdyT0LHNSfg

    I remember Gorman Thomas very well - a very undervalued player during his peak years (1978-82) IMO. Definitely top-5 OF in the AL during that time.
    Yep, that was the one. Too bad they didn't show the helmet-smashing. The next time Thomas faced LaRoche, he shortened up his swing and hit a single and a double off him.

    I liked Thomas a lot. Low BA with tons of strikeouts, but he also had tons of power, took walks, ran better than you'd expect, and played a decent center field.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  23. #98
    My History. Your Tradition. JDPNYY's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    How fun was that when a big hitter swung right out of his shoes and missed the folly floater! We laughed until we cried. Of course now and then one got hit into orbit.
    The thing about Steve, was that he never overused the pitch, so when he did throw the pitch it was unexpected and great.
    Complaining is a choice

  24. #99
    why me Lord? NoWay's Avatar
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    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    This is where the Sabermatics fanatics go wrong. Pure stats don't tell all. You had to see him play to appreciate him. No he wasn't a superstar, but he was more valuable than the stats would indicate

    Andy

    this^^^^


    you can't compare eras. Back then you generally had at least a half dozen guys in each league win 20 games every year...these days 20 wins is almost unheard of. Back then you could hit 30 home runs and lead the league.

  25. #100

    Re: How horrible was Bucky Dent ?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoWay View Post
    this^^^^


    you can't compare eras. Back then you generally had at least a half dozen guys in each league win 20 games every year...these days 20 wins is almost unheard of. Back then you could hit 30 home runs and lead the league.
    I'm not really sure what you mean saying we can't compare eras, since the rest of your post goes on to do exactly that. Of course the game changes across eras, but it's reasonably straightforward to measure that change and compare eras with statistics. And as quite a few posters have shown, contrary to Nome's claim, stats don't fail to measure Dent's value but rather show that he was indeed pretty valuable. While it doesn't make sense to evaluate a player based on absolute performance without considering the context of the era he played in, it also doesn't make sense to say we can't make adjustments to try and compare players who played in different environments.

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