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  1. #201

    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    What valuable young assets did we trade away for basically nothing? The only trade that even remotely comes close to this statement is the three team trade where we traded Kennedy and Jackson for Granderson.
    Kennedy is a good pitcher but no more than a #4 or #5 starter. Jackson is a good hitter with some power, but he couldn't fit into our centerfield. I think we got the better of the deal.

    Andy
    When I think of the Yankees squandering good young players in trades, I think of guys like Drabek, McGriff, Buhner, even Lowell. Jackson is a nice player, but I don't lose sleep over the deal. Yeah, I would call the trade a loss for the Yankees only because they didn't win anything with Granderson and right now they would be in better shape if they still had a cost controlled Jackson, but it's fairly close. If Granderson had helped win a WS in the past 4 years, it would have been a great trade, and I feel like Granderson did give them the better opportunity than Jackson would have.

  2. #202
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    McGriff?
    That is not a 'squander'.
    What were they to do, replace Mattingly?
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  3. #203
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    It speaks to how complex this has all gotten that responses were all over the place and no one could give a definitive answer.
    This is very definitive:

    Had Jeter picked up his option, his salary — for how luxury tax is computed — would have been $10.75 million for 2014. Now, it is $12.81 million. And since the Yankees are going to struggle to get under the cap, every dollar is going to count.
    http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/thank-y...payroll-plans/

  4. #204
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    McGriff?
    That is not a 'squander'.
    What were they to do, replace Mattingly?
    When they made the trade, Mattingly had 13 PA in the majors. He wasn't a regular the following year, either. He hit for a good average but not that much power in the minors. Of course, McGriff had just turned 19 and was in rookie ball, so it wasn't necessarily obvious how good he'd be.

    But trading anything of any value or even potential - any at all - for Dale Murray? Yeah, that's a squander.
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  5. #205
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I'll admit to not following this closely -- I thought there was dispute after that. Odd move, unless Hal isn't going to hold them to the $189 million
    "Welcome to NYYFans, the place where Yankees fans come together to complain about the manner in which our team is winning games" -- Mr. Coffee

  6. #206
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    When they made the trade, Mattingly had 13 PA in the majors. He wasn't a regular the following year, either. He hit for a good average but not that much power in the minors. Of course, McGriff had just turned 19 and was in rookie ball, so it wasn't necessarily obvious how good he'd be.

    But trading anything of any value or even potential - any at all - for Dale Murray? Yeah, that's a squander.

    Really?
    The team believed in Mattingly more than they believed in McGriff. So much that they asked Murcer to retire to make room in the bigs for Mattingly.

    This is a severe case of hindsight being 20/20.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  7. #207
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I don't know if this math is correct.
    Where did the 10.75 million come from?

    From what I can tell, the AAV of the previous contract was about 15.9 million. Even if the 2.5 million dollar buyout is factored in and applied to 2014, the AAV drops to about 12.5.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  8. #208
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I don't know if this math is correct.
    Where did the 10.75 million come from?

    From what I can tell, the AAV of the previous contract was about 15.9 million. Even if the 2.5 million dollar buyout is factored in and applied to 2014, the AAV drops to about 12.5.
    You're right - I don't know where he got that number from. It actually looks like he made a huge mistake with his calculation.

    3 years/$51M (2011-13), plus 2014 player option

    re-signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 12/6/10
    11:$15M, 12:$16M, 13:$17M, 14:$8M player option ($3M buyout)
    $2M annually deferred without interest, payable each 3/15, 2015-17 (present-day AAV about $16M)
    2014 option may increase to $17M based on awards earned in 2011-13: $4M for AL MVP; $2M for 2nd-6th in MVP vote; $1.5M for Silver Slugger; $0.5M each for Gold Glove, ALCS MVP, WS MVP
    if 2014 option is exercised at less than $17M, Jeter may earn same bonuses in 2014, up to $17M
    Jeter earned $1.5M bonus for 2012 Silver Slugger award, increasing value of 2014 player option to $9.5M

  9. #209
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    I asked Sherman on Twitter and he sent me this article -

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/the-mat...ters-contract/

  10. #210
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post

    Really?
    The team believed in Mattingly more than they believed in McGriff. So much that they asked Murcer to retire to make room in the bigs for Mattingly.

    This is a severe case of hindsight being 20/20.
    Watch out for your own hindsight as well. They asked Murcer to retire and brought up Mattingly, but not because of their belief in Mattingly as a young star:

    The Yankees displaced Murcer, placing him on irrevocable waivers, by bringing up Don Mattingly from the Class AAA Columbus farm today because ''we're short of infielders,'' explained Manager Billy Martin. The shortage occurred as the Yankees were on a five-game winning streaking and as they prepared for a pair of important series - here and then against the Red Sox .

    Mattingly, a fine-fielding first baseman, was needed because Sunday's hamstring injury to Ken Griffey sidelined the first baseman; the second baseman, Willie Randolph, remained sidelined, also with a hamstring problem.
    http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/21/sp...is-career.html

    Also, Murcer was completely washed up at that point. But note the description of Mattingly simply as "a fine-fielding first baseman." The expectations for him weren't more than moderate.

    Trading McGriff six months earlier had nothing to do with Mattingly one way or the other. The point of that trade was to get rid of an unhappy Dave Collins and replace him with an unhappy Steve Kemp. McGriff was just a throw-in, a young kid whom Steinbrenner undoubtedly knew nothing about. You're right that the judgment of it is basically hindsight, because McGriff wasn't even an established prospect. But again, any trade for Dale Murray was a squander.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  11. #211
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Watch out for your own hindsight as well. They asked Murcer to retire and brought up Mattingly, but not because of their belief in Mattingly as a young star:



    http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/21/sp...is-career.html

    Also, Murcer was completely washed up at that point. But note the description of Mattingly simply as "a fine-fielding first baseman." The expectations for him weren't more than moderate.

    Trading McGriff six months earlier had nothing to do with Mattingly one way or the other. The point of that trade was to get rid of an unhappy Dave Collins and replace him with an unhappy Steve Kemp. McGriff was just a throw-in, a young kid whom Steinbrenner undoubtedly knew nothing about. You're right that the judgment of it is basically hindsight, because McGriff wasn't even an established prospect. But again, any trade for Dale Murray was a squander.
    Oh yes.... the GSIII years... Forgot that factor...

    I think that Mattingly was actually better in the minors that McGriff was.

    EDIT: after further review.... Mattingly was better but not by much (using OPS)
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  12. #212
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I asked Sherman on Twitter and he sent me this article -

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/the-mat...ters-contract/
    I needed to take a couple of aspirin after reading that.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  13. #213
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I asked Sherman on Twitter and he sent me this article -

    http://nypost.com/2013/11/01/the-mat...ters-contract/
    Here is what I don't understand.

    Once Jeter signed the new contract and the 2011-13 contract was closed, why isn't any unamortized value of the old contract added to and taxed in 2013?

    If you accept what Sherman has to say in his article, the Yankees were taxed on $15.46M per year (roughly $31M combined) in 2011 & 2012. They paid him a total of $48M over the contract's three years, leaving $17M unamortized.

    Why aren't they being taxed on that $17M for 2013?
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  14. #214

    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    McGriff?
    That is not a 'squander'.
    What were they to do, replace Mattingly?
    Sometimes, you need to trade a prospect, but the issue is what you do with that opportunity. For example, the Montero - Pineda trade is a complete wash so far because they have both contributed nothing, but when the Yankees traded Montero, he had a ton of value and they were determined to trade him. Clearly, they made a mistake in how they used that chip. I don't blame them, it seemed like a decent idea at the time.

    That's why I didn't bring up Jose Rijo. At least the Yankees got an excellent player in return for him, though you can argue that at that point in franchise history, an ace would have helped them more than Ricky Henderson.

  15. #215
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274 View Post
    Sometimes, you need to trade a prospect, but the issue is what you do with that opportunity. For example, the Montero - Pineda trade is a complete wash so far because they have both contributed nothing, but when the Yankees traded Montero, he had a ton of value and they were determined to trade him. Clearly, they made a mistake in how they used that chip. I don't blame them, it seemed like a decent idea at the time.

    That's why I didn't bring up Jose Rijo. At least the Yankees got an excellent player in return for him, though you can argue that at that point in franchise history, an ace would have helped them more than Ricky Henderson.
    Well, Jose Rijo wasn't an ace in 1985, or 1986, or 1987. He wasn't an ace until 1990, when it wouldn't have made much difference to the Yankees.

    And I completely disagree on the Montero-Pineda trade. I think that Pineda was exactly the right person to trade Montero for, he just got injured. Stuff happens, but it was still the right trade to make at the time.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  16. #216
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274 View Post
    Sometimes, you need to trade a prospect, but the issue is what you do with that opportunity. For example, the Montero - Pineda trade is a complete wash so far because they have both contributed nothing, but when the Yankees traded Montero, he had a ton of value and they were determined to trade him. Clearly, they made a mistake in how they used that chip. I don't blame them, it seemed like a decent idea at the time.

    That's why I didn't bring up Jose Rijo. At least the Yankees got an excellent player in return for him, though you can argue that at that point in franchise history, an ace would have helped them more than Ricky Henderson.
    If Pineda doesn't get hurt, there's no debating that the Yankees made the right choice. Now, I still believe Pineda was damaged goods when the Yankees traded for him, but in theory it was the right trade to make at the right time.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  17. #217
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Well, Jose Rijo wasn't an ace in 1985, or 1986, or 1987. He wasn't an ace until 1990, when it wouldn't have made much difference to the Yankees.
    In itself, you're right, but combined with the Doug Drabek, Fred McGriff, Jay Buhner, Willie McGee and Hal Morris, the Yankees could have been a powerhouse if George hadn't traded them all away in exchange for nothing of significant value.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  18. #218
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    If Pineda doesn't get hurt, there's no debating that the Yankees made the right choice. Now, I still believe Pineda was damaged goods when the Yankees traded for him, but in theory it was the right trade to make at the right time.
    Of course, Mariners' fans could be arguing that the Yankees had inside knowledge about Montero, including the fact that he used PEDs
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  19. #219
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    In itself, you're right, but combined with the Doug Drabek, Fred McGriff, Jay Buhner, Willie McGee and Hal Morris, the Yankees could have been a powerhouse if George hadn't traded them all away in exchange for nothing of significant value.
    But the earlier post pointed out - correctly - that Rijo was not traded away "in exchange for nothing of significant value." He wasn't traded for Bob Sykes or Dale Murray or Ken Phelps. He was traded for Rickey Henderson.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  20. #220
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But the earlier post pointed out - correctly - that Rijo was not traded away "in exchange for nothing of significant value." He wasn't traded for Bob Sykes or Dale Murray or Ken Phelps. He was traded for Rickey Henderson.
    Sure, but then the Yankees shipped him right back to Oakland 4 years later (for Greg Caderet and scraps) where he went on to win the AL MVP, and lead the A's against Rijo and the Reds in the 1990 World Series.

    I'm just calling out this comment you made:
    Well, Jose Rijo wasn't an ace in 1985, or 1986, or 1987. He wasn't an ace until 1990, when it wouldn't have made much difference to the Yankees.
    My point is that Henderson wouldn't have made much difference either since they already gave him back to Oakland by then.

    While the Yankees hit rock bottom in 1990, many ex-Yankee prospects were among the top talents in the game and could have transformed the Yankees into serious contenders instead of the cellar-dwellers that they were. Doug Drabek was the NL Cy Young Award winner, while Hal Morris hit .340, Willie McGee .335, and McGriff had 35 HR. A rotation headed by Drabek and Rijo could have been one of the best in the game in 1990.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  21. #221
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Sure, but then the Yankees shipped him right back to Oakland 4 years later (for Greg Caderet and scraps) where he went on to win the AL MVP, and lead the A's against Rijo and the Reds in the 1990 World Series.

    I'm just calling out this comment you made:


    My point is that Henderson wouldn't have made much difference either since they already gave him back to Oakland by then.

    While the Yankees hit rock bottom in 1990, many ex-Yankee prospects were among the top talents in the game and could have transformed the Yankees into serious contenders instead of the cellar-dwellers that they were. Doug Drabek was the NL Cy Young Award winner, while Hal Morris hit .340, Willie McGee .335, and McGriff had 35 HR. A rotation headed by Drabek and Rijo could have been one of the best in the game in 1990.
    I, in turn, was calling out the comment:

    That's why I didn't bring up Jose Rijo. At least the Yankees got an excellent player in return for him, though you can argue that at that point in franchise history, an ace would have helped them more than Ricky Henderson.
    At that point in franchise history, they didn't have an ace in Jose Rijo. They had a great player in Rickey Henderson, even if it wasn't for long enough.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  22. #222
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    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by dave8274 View Post
    When I think of the Yankees squandering good young players in trades, I think of guys like Drabek, McGriff, Buhner, even Lowell. Jackson is a nice player, but I don't lose sleep over the deal. Yeah, I would call the trade a loss for the Yankees only because they didn't win anything with Granderson and right now they would be in better shape if they still had a cost controlled Jackson, but it's fairly close. If Granderson had helped win a WS in the past 4 years, it would have been a great trade, and I feel like Granderson did give them the better opportunity than Jackson would have.

    I didn't like the Lowell trade either but all the names you mentioned were years ago and all are now retired.

    Andy
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  23. #223

    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    I didn't like the Lowell trade either but all the names you mentioned were years ago and all are now retired.

    Andy
    True, my point was only that the trades they have made in the past few years where they have given up prospects, such as Austin Jackson and IPK, haven't been major train-wrecks like the trades of the 80's. Jackson is a nice player, but I don't think in 30 years Yankee fans will remember and regret that trade like we do the previous ones.

  24. #224

    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    If Pineda doesn't get hurt, there's no debating that the Yankees made the right choice. Now, I still believe Pineda was damaged goods when the Yankees traded for him, but in theory it was the right trade to make at the right time.
    Agreed, the trade only looks horrible in hindsight, though I believe there were signs that something wasn't right with Pineda late in the previous season. I won't second guess Cashman on that one though, I was ok with the trade at the time.

  25. #225

    Re: Yankees, Jeter agree on 1-yr. deal worth $12M

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Well, Jose Rijo wasn't an ace in 1985, or 1986, or 1987. He wasn't an ace until 1990, when it wouldn't have made much difference to the Yankees.
    Not to nitpick, because again, they got Henderson for him, but Rijo would have been far and away the best Yankees starter in 1988, a year where they only finished 3.5 games out with a horrible starting rotation outside of John Candelaria. Yes, I realize Henderson's offense contributed to that.

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