WORLD SERIES: Cardinals vs Red Sox

[ieddyi]

Wonder how many sawx loyalists pit a few $$ on the sawx to win it all before the season just as a lark? What were the Vegas odds before theseason started?

Clearly the best team- congrats to sawx fans- except Timmy

[aeromac76]

I would argue no franchise has benefitted more from steroids Manny and Ortiz (who apparently is tephlon)

I don't agree they have benefitted more or less from it in terms of on field performance.
As some have pointed out, we got the same ON FIELD benefit. Ortiz this year, well Alex in 2009 did the same thing..

What is true however, is that no team has gotten a pass for it like Boston amongst fans and in the media.
That's what irks me..

Having said they, they won it all. Congrats to them.

[TheUmp]

Wonder how many sawx loyalists pit a few $$ on the sawx to win it all before the season just as a lark? What were the Vegas odds before theseason started?

Clearly the best team- congrats to sawx fans- except Timmy

Just heard they were 18-1 in the pre-season odds.

[yanksftw]

the ws just underpins the difference between Cashman and Cherington. Throughout the series and extended playoff run, have we seen much of Cherington at all? No he stays out of the limelight and work behind the scene to perfect the baseball product without any need for external public validation or affirmation. If it had been Cashman, he would be seeking praise and ventured on some self aggrandizing media tour. We would been bombarded with Cashman interviews on YES, ESPN, probably even Letterman about his contribution to the team.

wonder if the popeyes near fenway is running out of chicken

[IndianaYankFan]

the ws just underpins the difference between Cashman and Cherington. Throughout the series and extended playoff run, have we seen much of Cherington at all? No he stays out of the limelight and work behind the scene to perfect the baseball product without any need for external public validation or affirmation. If it had been Cashman, he would be seeking praise and ventured on some self aggrandizing media tour. We would been bombarded with Cashman interviews on YES, ESPN, probably even Letterman about his contribution to the team.

wonder if the popeyes near fenway is running out of chicken

And I doubt you'll ever see Cherington telling a Red Sock to "shut the f up". Regardless of whether A-Rod deserved it or not, it was classless for the GM of the Yankees to stoop to that level.

[CyYoung4Vazquez]

Except for the Yankees, you're probably right.

You can take away those championships and they still have a boatload of championships. The Red Sox? Not so much.

[YankeeGalSC]

Congrats to the Red Sux. I'm gonna go throw up now.

[35Knucklecurve]

Buster Olney made a point that I hadn't really thought about - that the Sox had to hit rock bottom last year in order to make it very clear what had to be done. If they had gone 81-81 in 2012 - even with the circus without a tent atmosphere that seemed to add a new clown daily - management would probably not have been compelled to wipe the slate clean and start over. Granted, most of the time you don't get a complete 180 in one year, but you'd hope for improvement.

That said, congrats to the Sox and their fans........tough as it is to say it.

[Mr Coffee]

Buster Olney made a point that I hadn't really thought about - that the Sox had to hit rock bottom last year in order to make it very clear what had to be done. If they had gone 81-81 in 2012 - even with the circus without a tent atmosphere that seemed to add a new clown daily - management would probably not have been compelled to wipe the slate clean and start over. Granted, most of the time you don't get a complete 180 in one year, but you'd hope for improvement.

That said, congrats to the Sox and their fans........tough as it is to say it.

Well, they hit bottom and also had the good fortune to have another team take a bunch of sh!tty contracts off their hands. That had way more to do with the turnaround IMO.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

Buster Olney made a point that I hadn't really thought about - that the Sox had to hit rock bottom last year in order to make it very clear what had to be done. If they had gone 81-81 in 2012 - even with the circus without a tent atmosphere that seemed to add a new clown daily - management would probably not have been compelled to wipe the slate clean and start over. Granted, most of the time you don't get a complete 180 in one year, but you'd hope for improvement.

That said, congrats to the Sox and their fans........tough as it is to say it.

I think this is an interesting point. They've won 3 in 10 years, so hats off to them, but they've hardly been a model franchise the last couple of years. I would say that they've continued to do a good job with their farm system, though, which is going to be a foundation for success, especially for a team with significant resources.

[YankeePride1967]

What I liked about their approach this year (yes the biggest thing was shedding those contracts) was that they signed players (other than Pedroia's extension) to deals no longer than three years. Instead of the Angels approach of signing the one big stud as they did the past few years, they spead the money and built a team with depth. Hopefully the Yankees FO was taking notes.

[awy]

lol not even mad at all. wonder why some people seem mad

[TommyK8]

It's not a matter of whether the Yankees can turn it around quickly. They can with some creative and/or shrewd moves, and, like the Red Sox, a little bit of luck. The question is does the management have the courage to make the moves that are in the best interests of winning?

For example...there is a lot of talk about the Red Sox-Dodger trade, but the Red Sox did have the courage to trade their best player, someone they gave up good prospects for and made a 7 year commitment to four months earlier, the player who was supposed to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

Will the Yankees consider releasing ARod to end, once and for all, the drama and distraction that goes with him? How much can they expect to get out of him when he comes back at age 39 after however long the suspension is? Why not cut ties with him and let him be some other team's problem?

Will the Yankees have the courage to tell Derek Jeter that he's no longer the everyday shortstop and he will be filling in at third and serving primarily as the DH? No disrespect intended to Jeter, he's one of the greatest players to ever play the game of baseball and a first ballot Hall-of-Famer. But how many 40 year old shortstops coming off a serious ankle injury have played full-time shortstop on a championship-caliber team? That is a very hard decision to make, but the Yankees will be a better team in 2014 if they do it. And Jeter can still contribute offensively and he will stay healthier if he's a DH.

If the Yankees re-sign Cano, they will have an offensive core that can be augmented in the offseason to score enough runs to win. Re-signing Kuroda, and they have the starting pitching core as well. Cashman will have to add players to support the core, and some things have to go your way, like Sabathia and Teixeira coming back strong, and Nova building on his success of this year.

It can be done, and that's one way of doing it. The other way is a longer process that Yankee fans are not accustomed to. One very positive thing is the Yankees already have a very good manager in place. So at least they can get right into on-the-field moves as opposed to having to start looking for a new manager. The Red Sox traded their 2012 full-time starting shortstop to get their manager.

[Rice14]

You can take away those championships and they still have a boatload of championships. The Red Sox? Not so much.

If we're going to take away World Series wins because teams had guys who were using PEDs, then no team has won a title in 25 years or more and no team ever will again.

Anybody who thinks that way is certainly entitled to, but I wonder why they keep watching baseball.

[YankeePride1967]

It's not a matter of whether the Yankees can turn it around quickly. They can with some creative and/or shrewd moves, and, like the Red Sox, a little bit of luck. The question is does the management have the courage to make the moves that are in the best interests of winning?

For example...there is a lot of talk about the Red Sox-Dodger trade, but the Red Sox did have the courage to trade their best player, someone they gave up good prospects for and made a 7 year commitment to four months earlier, the player who was supposed to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

Will the Yankees consider releasing ARod to end, once and for all, the drama and distraction that goes with him? How much can they expect to get out of him when he comes back at age 39 after however long the suspension is? Why not cut ties with him and let him be some other team's problem?

Will the Yankees have the courage to tell Derek Jeter that he's no longer the everyday shortstop and he will be filling in at third and serving primarily as the DH? No disrespect intended to Jeter, he's one of the greatest players to ever play the game of baseball and a first ballot Hall-of-Famer. But how many 40 year old shortstops coming off a serious ankle injury have played full-time shortstop on a championship-caliber team? That is a very hard decision to make, but the Yankees will be a better team in 2014 if they do it. And Jeter can still contribute offensively and he will stay healthier if he's a DH.

If the Yankees re-sign Cano, they will have an offensive core that can be augmented in the offseason to score enough runs to win. Re-signing Kuroda, and they have the starting pitching core as well. Cashman will have to add players to support the core, and some things have to go your way, like Sabathia and Teixeira coming back strong, and Nova building on his success of this year.

It can be done, and that's one way of doing it. The other way is a longer process that Yankee fans are not accustomed to. One very positive thing is the Yankees already have a very good manager in place. So at least they can get right into on-the-field moves as opposed to having to start looking for a new manager. The Red Sox traded their 2012 full-time starting shortstop to get their manager.

Tom, the Red Sox saying yes to that trade with the Dodgers is about the equivalent of someone offering one a billion dollars only if they would quit work.

[effdamets]

glass half full: Adios, McCarver!

This..... times a googolplex!!!
Get the eff outta my baseball life forever.

Next up. Joe Buck.
(turdface)

[TommyK8]

By the way, no team will ever take over the Yankees in the number of championships, because the game has changed so dramatically. 20 of the 27 championships were won when there were 16 teams in the majors, instead of 30 now. If a team was the best team in the league and won the pennant, that team only had to win one series instead of three. And the biggest reason of all is that the Yankees won the first 20 before there was a draft (it started in 1964).

That's not to say the first 20 don't count. Of course they do. But the last 7, especially the last 5 are the most impressive ones...requiring three series victories to get the trophy. The greatest accomplishment of all was winning 4 championships in 5 years from 96-00. I honestly believe that no team will have another 5 year run like that. And they almost won another in 2001.

[BeantownYankee]

What I liked about their approach this year (yes the biggest thing was shedding those contracts) was that they signed players (other than Pedroia's extension) to deals no longer than three years. Instead of the Angels approach of signing the one big stud as they did the past few years, they spead the money and built a team with depth. Hopefully the Yankees FO was taking notes.

Cashman builds Depth, the difference is he signs his from the bargin bin

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

It's not a matter of whether the Yankees can turn it around quickly. They can with some creative and/or shrewd moves, and, like the Red Sox, a little bit of luck. The question is does the management have the courage to make the moves that are in the best interests of winning?

For example...there is a lot of talk about the Red Sox-Dodger trade, but the Red Sox did have the courage to trade their best player, someone they gave up good prospects for and made a 7 year commitment to four months earlier, the player who was supposed to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

It was hard to read past this. I'd hardly call it courage to make that trade in the third year of missing the playoffs and in the midst of what was clearly one of the most embarrassing seasons any franchise had had in a long time.

I'll give the Red Sox credit for some good offseason moves and their player development, but that trade was a no-brainer given where they were at the time. I'm still astonished the Dodgers gave up actual prospects to take on those 3 contracts.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

If we're going to take away World Series wins because teams had guys who were using PEDs, then no team has won a title in 25 years or more and no team ever will again.

Anybody who thinks that way is certainly entitled to, but I wonder why they keep watching baseball.

I agree with you. I find the acceptance of some of Ortiz's Simpson defense laughable, but you can't really separate the Red Sox out from anyone else in terms of PED use.

[montrealer]

Congrats to the Sox and Ortiz........entertaining series......

[goin for 27]

It's not a matter of whether the Yankees can turn it around quickly. They can with some creative and/or shrewd moves, and, like the Red Sox, a little bit of luck. The question is does the management have the courage to make the moves that are in the best interests of winning?

For example...there is a lot of talk about the Red Sox-Dodger trade, but the Red Sox did have the courage to trade their best player, someone they gave up good prospects for and made a 7 year commitment to four months earlier, the player who was supposed to be the cornerstone of the franchise.

Nonsense. That trade did not take courage at all. I went right to SOSH, and they were PARTYING over there.

First, AGon is a really nice player, but he was NOT their best player, not close. Pedroia/Ortiz for starters.

Also, AGon threw up a 2.6 WAR last year, and was a malcontent. Sure, they paid huge $$, and gave up good talent to get him. BUT, they got off the hook for all the remaining cash. PLUS, you couple in getting out from Crawford, who had a 0.3 WAR, and Beckett who had a 0.0 WAR, Jesus, it is a Triple Crown trade. Oh, and not just the cash, you get back a couple propects.

If someone comes to Cashman and says hey - we want Brett Gardner - 3.2 WAR, very good player. AND we will take ARod and Tex and pay their remaining salary.....would it take courage by Cashman to part with a very good young player?

That is an exaggeration, but really......not by much.

I give Cherington props, he did the deal, maybe he started the deal.....who knows? But courage? We were all looking for Bud to step in and stop it at the time, LOL

[effdamets]

I agree with you. I find the acceptance of some of Ortiz's Simpson defense laughable, but you can't really separate the Red Sox out from anyone else in terms of PED use.

The biggest issue I have with it all is that Orca-tiz isn't called out on it every waking minute of the day like Alex is.
He just continues to skate by. 37 going on 38 years old. And he's putting up numbers like he's 27.
Again, if collecting bank records, phone bills and credit card statements is the means that MLB is catching these guys, open up every ML player's life the way they did for the Biogenesis folks.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

The biggest issue I have with it all is that Orca-tiz isn't called out on it every waking minute of the day like Alex is.
He just continues to skate by. 37 going on 38 years old. And he's putting up numbers like he's 27.
Again, if collecting bank records, phone bills and credit card statements is the means that MLB is catching these guys, open up every ML player's life the way they did for the Biogenesis folks.

Let's not pretend they discovered Biogenesis. The reason it is being investigated is because newspaper broke the story and they were compelled to. I am sure there are a number of other examples like that one that we don't know about.

As for Ortiz, I heard on a couple of occasions (including on the game broadcast last night) comparisons to the dominance Bonds had in his prime. I couldn't believe someone said that out loud without being conscious of the implications

[TommyK8]

I think it takes courage to just admit the colossal mistakes and ask the fans to have confidence the team can start a rebuilding program. Clearly, the trade facilitated that, but it's hard to admit to a failure that involves the player you have touted as the cornerstone. And only one year earlier, A. Gonzalez had a much higher WAR than 2.3. However, if you want to use a different word than courage...perhaps that they had the resolve in that market to go into rebuilding mode...I am ok with that.

But let me simplify the comparison. Do the Yankees have the courage to just cut ties to ARod for the good of the team? That would be a huge step forward, but they would have to acknowledge a failure and eat a lot of money.

I don't think so. I think Yankee fans will be reading about lawsuits and PED's and hearing their GM and ARod and his entourage arguing for years to come. I think the conflict between this player and the team is irrepairable, but will the Yankees release him? If they do, I will commend them for courage.