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  1. #376
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    You won't go wrong taking the over on Bud's stupidity, but we just don't know what they have

    I'm sure a lot of their "tough" stance is negotiating bluster, but to not have solid basis for proceeding in the manner they have would be stupid above and beyond. With the importance they've given to the whole deal and the investigative $$ at their disposal and the character of the people involved , you'd think they'd be able to come up w/ tons of incriminating stuff. I think the clinic "records" will carry weight- why would Bosch falsify them? He had no way of knowing there's be an investigation and was probably too arrogant and sloppy to care. I'm sure they'll get a bunch of people to flip as well.

    Sure it will be a Phyrric victory, but since when has Bud had a vision or perspective on anything?
    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    yeah, this is why I don't get when people say baseball has nothing except a spreadsheet and/or the word of Tony Bosch. I highly doubt they would be going to this extreme if they didn't have some pretty solid evidence. I would agree that baseball and Selig would be really asinine to set themselves up for humiliating defeat if they didn't have anything.

    Not to say you can ever predict how an arbitrator will rule, but I tend to think the amount and depth of evidence is huge.
    I completely agree that we don't necessarily know all the elements of MLB's case, but I am not willing to give them the full benefit of the doubt here. They were forced into this case by a media outlet breaking this story, and I think a lot of their activity has been driven by a desire to put pressure on the players and convince them to confess. I know Bud badly wants to make this happen, but I think the jury is still out on whether he has enough to actually get an arbitrator to agree with him.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't know what else the legal teams of A-Rod, Braun, et al, have come up with -- for instance, we know of some of the shady activities of the Biogenesis folks, but it's entirely possible that they are even less credible than we already know. And the fact that MLB essentially coerced Bosch (through legal tactics) to work with them isn't going to look good either.
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  2. #377
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    I just don't get it, the home run records have already been broken, Alex poses no threat at this point.. He's played hard and entertained us for over 15 seasons, his hard play tore his hips apart. So why is MLB, the media, and so many other people out to take him down. Even hiring secret agents, what's next the FBI.?

    There must be a bounty or some kind of big payday to bring A-rod down, I well understand why the Yankees want his head, but why is Baseball so crazy insane and willing to go all out to get him? Bosch is a scumbag, a felon that tried to blackmail players, and now MLB is not only believing him, they're paying him!

    As Bugg said, the cat's out of the bag when it comes to PED's, they'll never put it back in my opinion. Let A-rod and the Yankees fight it out.. For a player that's never failed a test, sky is the limit for slander against A-rod...

  3. #378

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    I completely agree that we don't necessarily know all the elements of MLB's case, but I am not willing to give them the full benefit of the doubt here. They were forced into this case by a media outlet breaking this story, and I think a lot of their activity has been driven by a desire to put pressure on the players and convince them to confess. I know Bud badly wants to make this happen, but I think the jury is still out on whether he has enough to actually get an arbitrator to agree with him.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that we don't know what else the legal teams of A-Rod, Braun, et al, have come up with -- for instance, we know of some of the shady activities of the Biogenesis folks, but it's entirely possible that they are even less credible than we already know. And the fact that MLB essentially coerced Bosch (through legal tactics) to work with them isn't going to look good either.
    I think that MLB has been waiting for a reason to further pursue Braun ( with justification IMO ) and the Miami Times story gave them fresh ammo.

    They are ratcheting up the pressure so I wonder if some of the "evidence" will be leaked
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  4. #379

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NoodleRay View Post
    I just don't get it, the home run records have already been broken, Alex poses no threat at this point.. He's played hard and entertained us for over 15 seasons, his hard play tore his hips apart. So why is MLB, the media, and so many other people out to take him down. Even hiring secret agents, what's next the FBI.?

    There must be a bounty or some kind of big payday to bring A-rod down, I well understand why the Yankees want his head, but why is Baseball so crazy insane and willing to go all out to get him? Bosch is a scumbag, a felon that tried to blackmail players, and now MLB is not only believing him, they're paying him!

    As Bugg said, the cat's out of the bag when it comes to PED's, they'll never put it back in my opinion. Let A-rod and the Yankees fight it out.. For a player that's never failed a test, sky is the limit for slander against A-rod...
    You are 100% right. Lets be honest, if AROD had done the same things but was still hitting 50 home runs or won a World Series MVP last year, the Yankees would be defending AROD with Trost and Levine.

    The fans all turn on this guy, yet teflon Andy gets standing ovations for giving up 4 runs in 6 innings while making 12 million a year. If anyone believes his story that he only used them twice, while running round like Roger's loyal puppy for a decade, I have a bridge to sell you. AROD gets lambasted for hiding behind his cousin, Andy sent them to his Dad's house.

  5. #380
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    I think that MLB has been waiting for a reason to further pursue Braun ( with justification IMO ) and the Miami Times story gave them fresh ammo.

    They are ratcheting up the pressure so I wonder if some of the "evidence" will be leaked
    We'll see. Part of me feels like MLB would be less "leaky" if they had a stronger case.

    I agree on Braun - I know A-Rod is the better media story, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bud & Co.'s #1 target is Braun. They certainly don't want to have him beat them twice.
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  6. #381
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yankees2010 View Post
    You are 100% right. Lets be honest, if AROD had done the same things but was still hitting 50 home runs or won a World Series MVP last year, the Yankees would be defending AROD with Trost and Levine.

    The fans all turn on this guy, yet teflon Andy gets standing ovations for giving up 4 runs in 6 innings while making 12 million a year. If anyone believes his story that he only used them twice, while running round like Roger's loyal puppy for a decade, I have a bridge to sell you. AROD gets lambasted for hiding behind his cousin, Andy sent them to his Dad's house.
    I agree with this, I think if Alex was hitting like he did 5 years ago, the "outrage" would be a lot more silent.

  7. #382

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    I'm sure a lot of their "tough" stance is negotiating bluster, but to not have solid basis for proceeding in the manner they have would be stupid above and beyond. With the importance they've given to the whole deal and the investigative $$ at their disposal and the character of the people involved , you'd think they'd be able to come up w/ tons of incriminating stuff. I think the clinic "records" will carry weight- why would Bosch falsify them? He had no way of knowing there's be an investigation and was probably too arrogant and sloppy to care. I'm sure they'll get a bunch of people to flip as well.
    You give Bud too much credit.

    Historically they swiftly suspended anyone they had proof on (Colon and Manny come to mind) and have actually shown a pattern of overplaying their hand (Braun) even when the rules are clearly not on their side. It's possible they've learned their lesson, but I doubt it. That would require information discipline MLB has not possessed, like, ever.

    If I were to run a steroid mill, having ARod on my client list sounds like a pretty good marketing ploy.

    I've been saying for a while Ryan Braun is much more likely to be MLB's No. 1 target. He humiliated MLB in ways ARod has never dreamed of.

    Here is the thing about flipping other guys... according to people from Biogenesis, nobody but Bosch saw ARod. That means they can flip everyone and still not have anything on ARod except Bosch's word and shoddy records.

  8. #383
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    As usual there's some high quality greymatter on the case in the A-rod thread, and I'm not talking about me. You guys are the best, this is and has been a good intense debate.. I'm amazed and happy even if to just witness such passion,, it's been fun to watch..

  9. #384

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Nothing at all. The Joint Drug Policy requires cooperation with testing and with treatment programs, but doesn't say anything about MLB investigations other than testing. It does have this thoroughly bizarre paragraph regarding government investigations (Section 6D):
    In my opinion, if he did try to subvert an investigation into his alleged PED use/Biogenesis involvement, then that is a far worse offense than a first or even a second PED usage, and should get a stiffer penalty. If the CBA says nothing about this, then isnt it up to the Commish's discretion what the punishment will be?

  10. #385

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    You give Bud too much credit.

    Historically they swiftly suspended anyone they had proof on (Colon and Manny come to mind) and have actually shown a pattern of overplaying their hand (Braun) even when the rules are clearly not on their side. It's possible they've learned their lesson, but I doubt it. That would require information discipline MLB has not possessed, like, ever.

    If I were to run a steroid mill, having ARod on my client list sounds like a pretty good marketing ploy.

    I've been saying for a while Ryan Braun is much more likely to be MLB's No. 1 target. He humiliated MLB in ways ARod has never dreamed of.

    Here is the thing about flipping other guys... according to people from Biogenesis, nobody but Bosch saw ARod. That means they can flip everyone and still not have anything on ARod except Bosch's word and shoddy records.
    But how would that "marketing " work?

    Showing people the client lists- doubt it.

    He could brag about it, but wouldn't need records to back up his claims.

    Seems to me that the records are legit- unless you think that Bosch made them up months/years ago for some reason.

    I think a forensic pathologist can probably determine when the notes were made. In a business like Bochs' your clients depend on your confidentiality. Using the notes against them would crater his clinic. I think they will carry weight if they can be verified- handwriting and age determination
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  11. #386

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    He did brag about it.

    The records will carry some weight but everything suggests the records are incomplete at best. Some of it electronic, which is easily forged. Whatever they got, they have determined it's not enough to win in arbitration with certainty. They'd have already suspended Braun and ARod otherwise. It's possible they have enough to win and they just want to be sure. Given the history of overplaying their hands and leaking information, I just find this doubtful.

    Then there is the whole thing with Bosch and Fischer trying to get money from ARod.

  12. #387

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinMusic View Post
    In my opinion, if he did try to subvert an investigation into his alleged PED use/Biogenesis involvement, then that is a far worse offense than a first or even a second PED usage, and should get a stiffer penalty. If the CBA says nothing about this, then isnt it up to the Commish's discretion what the punishment will be?
    Did Melky receive an additional penalty for setting up his fake website?

    Honest question-- I don't remember.
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  13. #388

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    But how would that "marketing " work?

    Showing people the client lists- doubt it.

    He could brag about it, but wouldn't need records to back up his claims.

    Seems to me that the records are legit- unless you think that Bosch made them up months/years ago for some reason.

    I think a forensic pathologist can probably determine when the notes were made. In a business like Bochs' your clients depend on your confidentiality. Using the notes against them would crater his clinic. I think they will carry weight if they can be verified- handwriting and age determination
    The marketing is simple. It's how all celebrity endorsements work. You tie a famous face to your product it sells better. Obviously, he can't make commercials but he can say to anyone who comes into his clinic looking for results "Look what I've done for Ryan Braun" or whomever.

    And we're talking about a spread sheet. I could make a spread sheet right now with a category called 'Victoria's Secret Models I've Slept With'. It doesn't prove anything and certainly doesn't make it true.
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  14. #389
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinMusic View Post
    In my opinion, if he did try to subvert an investigation into his alleged PED use/Biogenesis involvement, then that is a far worse offense than a first or even a second PED usage, and should get a stiffer penalty. If the CBA says nothing about this, then isnt it up to the Commish's discretion what the punishment will be?
    Maybe. Then it's up to the arbitrator whether it sticks or not.

  15. #390

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Did Melky receive an additional penalty for setting up his fake website?

    Honest question-- I don't remember.
    No...

  16. #391
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    We'll see. Part of me feels like MLB would be less "leaky" if they had a stronger case.

    I agree on Braun - I know A-Rod is the better media story, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bud & Co.'s #1 target is Braun. They certainly don't want to have him beat them twice.
    The idea MLB is 'targeting" any player-why? All Selig has accomplished is denigrating baseball. This process has become personal, subjective and destructive. David Ortiz and Andy Pettitte have no problem, but MLB now gets in bed with a sleazabag like Bosch to target specific players. It should be more business-like, like the NFL. Of course that would require a commissioner who understood how this hurts the marketing of the sport, and could check his ego (and idiocy) at the door. PEDs should be an agate type thing, not the back cover of your newspaper.

    Instead Selig's office wants to cater to a bunch of old dead tree writers who no one under 50 cares about. And that same bunch is harming the HoF with wreckless and pointless speculation. Yet this is the same group who voted in Gaylord Perry.Would love to see a list or poll of the writers who cast those votes and what they are now saying about PEDs.
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  17. #392

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    I agree with a lot of what's in this article: http://deadspin.com/10-or-so-thought...-the-511484352
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  18. #393
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I agree with a lot of what's in this article: http://deadspin.com/10-or-so-thought...-the-511484352
    As do I. Two points I particularly liked:

    4a) Given the vanishingly small likelihood that any of the proof so far on offer could actually lead to formal punishment of any given player, one might take the leak as central baseball trying to punish players not through the mechanisms they've agreed to in legally binding documents, but through subterfuge and public shaming.

    5) The great achievement of Bud Selig's reign as commissioner has been labor peace...A vindictive program of leaks and shady dealings carried out against some of the union's most famous and powerful members will likely not do much to ensure that this peace continues.
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  19. #394

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    The marketing is simple. It's how all celebrity endorsements work. You tie a famous face to your product it sells better. Obviously, he can't make commercials but he can say to anyone who comes into his clinic looking for results "Look what I've done for Ryan Braun" or whomever.

    And we're talking about a spread sheet. I could make a spread sheet right now with a category called 'Victoria's Secret Models I've Slept With'. It doesn't prove anything and certainly doesn't make it true.
    Saying Al was a client would have nothing to do with him creating records. My understanding was that the records were written and thus can be verified forensically.

    It's all guesswork now because we don't know what MLB has- but I think it will be leaked soon
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  20. #395

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    My understanding was that the records were written and thus can be verified forensically.
    At most, they can verify that Bosch (or someone) made an entry or entries with the name 'Alex Rodriguez' on them. I'm not sure exactly what that proves. I realize the burdens of proof are different, but the Federal Gov't couldn't nail Clemens with McNamee and a bunch of dirty needles.

    If they had a money trail or something like that, that would constitute proof more than a journal entry.
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  21. #396

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    At most, they can verify that Bosch (or someone) made an entry or entries with the name 'Alex Rodriguez' on them. I'm not sure exactly what that proves. I realize the burdens of proof are different, but the Federal Gov't couldn't nail Clemens with McNamee and a bunch of dirty needles.

    If they had a money trail or something like that, that would constitute proof more than a journal entry.
    As I said, I don't think it will be too long before the "evidence" is leaked.

    I think the longer they wait to leak the info, the weaker it probably is. If it's damning it'll get out soon
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  22. #397
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    This is what I mean about damaging baseball; put up or shut up and name your sources. There seems to be a strain of baseball writers that love this half truth innunedo crap, and MLB seems a little too inclined to feed them information.

    "8) Several columnists have alluded to rumors that Braun and Rodriguez aren't the only big names on Bosch's list. ESPN's Jayson Stark has even suggested that they "might not even be the biggest names on that list." The list of names bigger than Rodriguez can be counted on a hand, and consists of the names Jeter, Pujols, and Rivera. Anyone who has reasonable sources telling them that one of those players will be named in this investigation is engaged in a coy veil dance and should either put his reputation on the line by naming names or not implicate players by innuendo."
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  23. #398

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    As I said, I don't think it will be too long before the "evidence" is leaked.

    I think the longer they wait to leak the info, the weaker it probably is. If it's damning it'll get out soon
    I can't wait to see what, if anything, else they have. Because if all they have is what we've already heard about, it sure doesn't sound like much.
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  24. #399

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    How soon?

    They had Bosch for over a month.

    And then (probably) paid off Fischer almost 2 weeks ago.

    Still no leaks?

    PS: if those guys really had bombs, my guess is someone would have paid them to begin with.

  25. #400

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    How soon?

    They had Bosch for over a month.

    And then (probably) paid off Fischer almost 2 weeks ago.

    Still no leaks?

    PS: if those guys really had bombs, my guess is someone would have paid them to begin with.
    Could be they're keeping a lid on it until after the break, but if they could do that they should have kept the whole thing quiet to begin with.
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