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  1. #351

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    What part of the CBA are you referring to that applies to this?

    Manny was suspended w/o a failed test....
    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGRESSIVE

  2. #352

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    Manny was suspended w/o a failed test....
    You can tell people until you're blue in the face that baseball doesn't need a failed drug test to suspend somebody, but it won't matter. They just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. They don't understand this concept for some reason. They think the only way a player can be suspended for PED use is if there is a failed drug test. A failed drug test is definitely ONE way a player can be found to have used PED's and then suspended, but it's not the only way. But they won't get it no matter how many times you say it, believe me.

    As if baseball is going through this whole process without a failed test and doesn't realize it can't do anything without one.

  3. #353

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Leaking all this ................ (including test results) to the press. putting the squeeze on dubious sources like they are law enforcement - where are the failed tests?

    If is doesn't bother you that this piece of ................ Selig has spent so much of his time as Commissioner tearing down the people that play the game then you're not thinking straight.
    1. They don't need to act like law enforcement, nor are they acting like them. They are enforcing collectively bargained rules and not laws and therefore have intrisincally much more latitude.
    2. There are no failed tests, I agree. Why that should somehow stop baseball from enforcing its drug policy is beyond me. Obviously people don't have to have a failed test to get suspended.
    3. No, it doesn't bother me that Selig is trying to take down people like Braun and ARod (and melky and colon, etc). I'm pretty confident that they've all used PED's and it doesn't bother me at all that he's trying to go after them for it.

  4. #354

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    27 World Championships
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  5. #355

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    You can tell people until you're blue in the face that baseball doesn't need a failed drug test to suspend somebody, but it won't matter. They just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. They don't understand this concept for some reason. They think the only way a player can be suspended for PED use is if there is a failed drug test. A failed drug test is definitely ONE way a player can be found to have used PED's and then suspended, but it's not the only way. But they won't get it no matter how many times you say it, believe me.

    As if baseball is going through this whole process without a failed test and doesn't realize it can't do anything without one.
    Why can't you ever just answer a direct question? You make a statement, it's challenged, you say nothing, someone else does, you agree with them like it's so obvious you couldn't be bothered. How about doing your own thinking for once? You add nothing to the conversation otherwise.
    27 World Championships
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  6. #356

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Why can't you ever just answer a direct question? You make a statement, it's challenged, you say nothing, someone else does, you agree with them like it's so obvious you couldn't be bothered. How about doing your own thinking for once? You add nothing to the conversation otherwise.
    What are you talking about? What challenge haven't I answered?

  7. #357

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    What are you talking about? What challenge haven't I answered?
    The question I asked you that ieddyi just answered.

    BTW, I never said the only way someone can get suspended is from a positive test.
    27 World Championships
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  8. #358

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    The question I asked you that ieddyi just answered.

    BTW, I never said the only way someone can get suspended is from a positive test.
    If you asked me a question that I didn't answer, I apologize. though given our history I think you'd understand why I tend not to read a lot of what you post.

  9. #359

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    If you asked me a question that I didn't answer, I apologize. though given our history I think you'd understand why I tend not to read a lot of what you post.
    Yeah, because I tend to whip your ass in arguments.

    I keep forgetting. Carry on...
    27 World Championships
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  10. #360

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Yeah, because I tend to whip your ass in arguments.

    I keep forgetting. Carry on...
    yeah. That's like Canada threatening to invade the US.

    Come on, son.

  11. #361

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    oh jesus
    always reasonable

  12. #362

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    27 World Championships
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  13. #363

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Ok, so what could MLB possibly have on A-Rod?

    1. A spreadsheet with his name listed, alongside what he bought and/or a schedule of drugs he was taking.

    2. Possibly a notebook or notebooks stating I guess the same as the above.

    3. The word of Bosch, whom they agreed to help with his law enforcement issues, legal bills.

    Cancelled checks/ receipts with A-Rod's signature? I doubt it.

    A failed test? Nope.

    Surveillance video/photos of him going to or leaving the clinic? Shaking hands with Bosch at a restaurant?

    They better have something better than a spreadsheet (that anyone could write) and the testimony of Bosch if they are thinking about suspending anyone or the MLBPA is going to destroy them.
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  14. #364
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    I think we need two threads here ... the "2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread (On the Field)" and the "2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread (In the Commissioner's Office)." Or something like that.

    For what it's worth, in his last rehab game in Tampa ...

    Alex Rodriguez had an RBI double, a walk and a strikeout today in Tampa. He’ll be with Double-A Trenton tomorrow.
    http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2013/07/1...game-notes-79/

  15. #365

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    My recollectioin is that Manny had an elevated T level and was suspended and dropped his appeal only after MLB found the script he got for HCG. W/o the script for HCG, he's not suspended


    " In the announcement by Major League Baseball, Ramirez was suspended for unspecified violation of the agreement section 8.G.2. Shortly afterward, Ramirez stated that a physician had unknowingly prescribed a banned medication. After consulting with the players association, Ramirez waived his right to challenge the suspension.[3] According to an ESPN report, the drug used by Ramirez was human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), a women's fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body's natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Jason Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO. Testing revealed artificial testosterone, too.[37] As a condition for returning from the suspension, Ramirez was subject to three additional drug tests per year in addition to the minimum of two per player.
    /
    "

    Wikipedia

    "Major League Baseball's drug-testing program has nabbed its most prominent offender, even though he never failed a drug test.

    Baseball officials announced Thursday they had suspended Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder Manny Ramirez for 50 games for taking a banned substance. A person familiar with the matter confirmed the substance was human chorionic gonadotropin, known as HCG, which stimulates the production of testosterone.

    [Manny Ramirez of the Los Angeles Dodgers prepares to bat during an April game.]
    Getty Images
    Manny Ramirez of the Los Angeles Dodgers prepares to bat during an April game.

    While Major League Baseball officials won't say how they caught Mr. Ramirez, the league followed information it had gathered about Mr. Ramirez's drug use and ultimately decided it had enough to hand down a "non-analytical" discipline, according to a person familiar with the matter, meaning the punishment was delivered without a failed test.

    Baseball has given other, lesser-known players 50-game suspensions. Last year it suspended Atlanta Braves outfielder Jordan Schafer for links to the banned Human Growth Hormone, or HGH, for which no test exists. Mr. Schafer apologized to his teammates for his mistakes but has never admitted taking the drug.

    In a statement released Thursday, Mr. Ramirez, 36 years old, said he took a substance a doctor prescribed without realizing baseball's guidelines prohibited its use. "That mistake is now my responsibility," Mr. Ramirez said. "I have been advised not to say anything more for now. I do want to say one other thing; I've taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five seasons."

    [Many Ramirez]
    MANNY RAMIREZ

    Scott Boras, Mr. Ramirez's agent, didn't return phone calls seeking comment.

    The suspension is the latest blow to baseball, which is still reeling from Yankees slugger Alex Rodriguez's off-season admission that he used performance-enhancing drugs from 2001-2003. Other now-retired superstars, including Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Roger Clemens, have also become mired in steroid allegations, leaving baseball to deal with the dilemma of trying to market its game around a generation of stars whose very prowess may call into question their legitimacy.
    "

    WSJ

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124171191680796495.html

    So, he had elevated T, but the suspension was for HCG- the evidence of which was the Dr's script
    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGRESSIVE

  16. #366

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Ok, so what could MLB possibly have on A-Rod?

    1. A spreadsheet with his name listed, alongside what he bought and/or a schedule of drugs he was taking.

    2. Possibly a notebook or notebooks stating I guess the same as the above.

    3. The word of Bosch, whom they agreed to help with his law enforcement issues, legal bills.

    Cancelled checks/ receipts with A-Rod's signature? I doubt it.

    A failed test? Nope.

    Surveillance video/photos of him going to or leaving the clinic? Shaking hands with Bosch at a restaurant?

    They better have something better than a spreadsheet (that anyone could write) and the testimony of Bosch if they are thinking about suspending anyone or the MLBPA is going to destroy them.
    Coffee, let me ask you a question.

    You're given a choice, okay? If you guess correctly, you win eternal health, unlimited riches and a foot massage from Kate Upton.

    If you guess incorrectly, you are doomed to eternal damnation and are forced to give Roseanne Barr a sponge bath each night for all eternity.

    Do you believe Alex Rodriguez did business and ingested PED's from Anthony Bosch at any point within the past four years?

    Don't get squirrely and start debating the legalities of what kind of ingestion took place or whether he actually paid Bosch directly or whatever. Just go with the spirit of it.

    Do you think he did something that would in the spirit and letter of the rules run afoul of baseball's joint drug policy?

    Yes or no?

  17. #367
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Ok, so what could MLB possibly have on A-Rod?

    1. A spreadsheet with his name listed, alongside what he bought and/or a schedule of drugs he was taking.

    2. Possibly a notebook or notebooks stating I guess the same as the above.

    3. The word of Bosch, whom they agreed to help with his law enforcement issues, legal bills.

    Cancelled checks/ receipts with A-Rod's signature? I doubt it.

    A failed test? Nope.

    Surveillance video/photos of him going to or leaving the clinic? Shaking hands with Bosch at a restaurant?

    They better have something better than a spreadsheet (that anyone could write) and the testimony of Bosch if they are thinking about suspending anyone or the MLBPA is going to destroy them.
    MLB continues to paint itself into a corner, and then twists itself into a pretzel. Would like nothing better than for Rodriguez to be gone from the Yankees.Clear he's physically done and his talent has dissipated. But if you're going to take away the guy's livelihood MLB is going have to do a lot better than this.In fact it might be better for the Yankees if MLB STFU and let the settlement talks begin quietly.

    No doubt Rodrigiuez used, but the spirit of the rules doens't matter at all.

    Food for thougfht-the line between EVIL PEDs and legitmate medical use blurs more each day. So MLB goes on this inquisition to make up for Bud Selig being indifferent to all this for a decade and a half. To the point that someone like Madsen using a legitimate medical treatment under a doctor and his team are being penalized...any idea why? Because Mike Lupica and Dan Shaugnessy and a bunch of old white guy writers pretend to be mad for the children? http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1371962
    pitching, pitching and pitching

  18. #368

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    My recollectioin is that Manny had an elevated T level and was suspended and dropped his appeal only after MLB found the script he got for HCG. W/o the script for HCG, he's not suspended
    Here's an article: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may...anny-dodgers12

    His test showed abnormally high levels of testosterone, which led to an investigation. The investigation required him to turn over medical records, which showed a prescription for HCG.

    Further testing revealed the testosterone to be synthetic. They had him either way, but he dropped his appeal to begin serving his suspension immediately. They wouldn't have had the prescription without the positive test, and they would have nailed him on the test without the prescription anyway.
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  19. #369

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    My recollectioin is that Manny had an elevated T level and was suspended and dropped his appeal only after MLB found the script he got for HCG. W/o the script for HCG, he's not suspended

    So, he had elevated T, but the suspension was for HCG- the evidence of which was the Dr's script
    I didn't see your lengthy edit before responding.

    I don't think they have that much on A-Rod. Playing Devil's (A-Rod's) advocate, isn't it just as possible this fake doctor threw around a bunch of famous players' names in order to make his business look good to clients/possible investors?

    I mean, I don't even have a GED in law and I think I could beat this case. Unless there's something we don't know about (which is doubtful--this investigation has more leaks than Dick Cheney's duck boat), but I have no idea what it could be.
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  20. #370

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    We'd know by now if they had anything solid on ARod. MLB is on pace to suspend some more MiLB players not covered by the CBA.

  21. #371
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    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post

    Do you think he did something that would in the spirit and letter of the rules run afoul of baseball's joint drug policy?

    Yes or no?
    You directed this to Mr Coffee, but my answer is: I don't know. And it doesn't matter.

    I don't think anyone's said that MLB can't suspend a player without a positive drug test. The skepticism has been about whether they can make the suspension hold up on appeal. If they've got very solid evidence of use, or even possession - something rather stronger than he-said-he-said - they may be able to get the players on a 50-game suspension. All the more extravagant penalties, I believe, would be shot down. And I think it would be foolish for them to attempt highly publicized grand gestures if they can't make them stick (that goes for the 50-game suspensions as well).
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  22. #372

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Even if MLB manages to make any of the suspensions stick (there is a lot of players getting investigated), the victory will be pretty... Pyrrhic.

  23. #373

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    with the game's larger balance tilting towards (young) pitching, there's a real chance that the yankees' pitching development badness really made them miss the wave.

    i'd want more roids in the game to give offense a boost
    always reasonable

  24. #374

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I didn't see your lengthy edit before responding.

    I don't think they have that much on A-Rod. Playing Devil's (A-Rod's) advocate, isn't it just as possible this fake doctor threw around a bunch of famous players' names in order to make his business look good to clients/possible investors?

    I mean, I don't even have a GED in law and I think I could beat this case. Unless there's something we don't know about (which is doubtful--this investigation has more leaks than Dick Cheney's duck boat), but I have no idea what it could be.
    You won't go wrong taking the over on Bud's stupidity, but we just don't know what they have

    I'm sure a lot of their "tough" stance is negotiating bluster, but to not have solid basis for proceeding in the manner they have would be stupid above and beyond. With the importance they've given to the whole deal and the investigative $$ at their disposal and the character of the people involved , you'd think they'd be able to come up w/ tons of incriminating stuff. I think the clinic "records" will carry weight- why would Bosch falsify them? He had no way of knowing there's be an investigation and was probably too arrogant and sloppy to care. I'm sure they'll get a bunch of people to flip as well.

    Sure it will be a Phyrric victory, but since when has Bud had a vision or perspective on anything?
    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGRESSIVE

  25. #375

    Re: 2013 Alex Rodriguez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    You won't go wrong taking the over on Bud's stupidity, but we just don't know what they have

    I'm sure a lot of their "tough" stance is negotiating bluster, but to not have solid basis for proceeding in the manner they have would be stupid above and beyond. With the importance they've given to the whole deal and the investigative $$ at their disposal and the character of the people involved , you'd think they'd be able to come up w/ tons of incriminating stuff. I think the clinic "records" will carry weight- why would Bosch falsify them? He had no way of knowing there's be an investigation and was probably too arrogant and sloppy to care. I'm sure they'll get a bunch of people to flip as well.

    Sure it will be a Phyrric victory, but since when has Bud had a vision or perspective on anything?
    yeah, this is why I don't get when people say baseball has nothing except a spreadsheet and/or the word of Tony Bosch. I highly doubt they would be going to this extreme if they didn't have some pretty solid evidence. I would agree that baseball and Selig would be really asinine to set themselves up for humiliating defeat if they didn't have anything.

    Not to say you can ever predict how an arbitrator will rule, but I tend to think the amount and depth of evidence is huge.

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