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  1. #26
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Not at all. Pp. 124-5 in particular. Much more precise and legitimate than any of the information on players.
    Except it left out a lot of (Red Sox) players, including high profile ones.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  2. #27
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Except it left out a lot of (Red Sox) players, including high profile ones.
    What does that have o o with Brian Sabean?

    What does it even have to do with the Mitchell Report? If you read it, you will understand why they discussed only he players they did.

  3. #28

    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Firstly there is no reason for the union to be serious about getting rid of PED. Secondly I doubt teams are serious about getting rid of PED too. The Brewers wouldn't get rid of Braun's contract even if he's suspended for a whole season.
    Then why bother testing? If MLB doesn't care about PED use why should the fans. If they really want to clean this mess up they need to have stricter consequences.... voiding contracts would be a good place to start.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lola View Post
    Then why bother testing? If MLB doesn't care about PED use why should the fans. If they really want to clean this mess up they need to have stricter consequences.... voiding contracts would be a good place to start.
    You're right. As a fan I don't care. Some fans care so Selig does something to show that he cares too. It doesn't mean that teams really care.

    If you're the Brewers owner, would you want to see your team's biggest drawing card and best player being suspended? Why would you try to void his contract if the contract is team friendly?

    The owners may be baseball fans. But they're also business men.

  5. #30

    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    You're right. As a fan I don't care. Some fans care so Selig does something to show that he cares too. It doesn't mean that teams really care.

    If you're the Brewers owner, would you want to see your team's biggest drawing card and best player being suspended? Why would you try to void his contract if the contract is team friendly?

    The owners may be baseball fans. But they're also business men.
    I say I don't care and I'm over the whole thing until someone gets outed... ie. ARod. Then I get angry all over again.

  6. #31

    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    You're right. As a fan I don't care. Some fans care so Selig does something to show that he cares too. It doesn't mean that teams really care.

    If you're the Brewers owner, would you want to see your team's biggest drawing card and best player being suspended? Why would you try to void his contract if the contract is team friendly?

    The owners may be baseball fans. But they're also business men.
    I don't actually agree that owners and players as a whole just don't care about PED's. I think it's far more complicated than that. i don't think the majority of them object on moral grounds, but I do think increasingly teams are realizing how perilous their situation can become if, for example, they sign a player to a long term deal and then said players stops producing and/or his body begins to break down early in that deal.

    I also think the media and baseball gets a little bit of unfair blame for supposedly 'turning a blind eye' to steroids in the late 90's and early 00's. We all sort of suspend belief when watching sports and as these guys got bigger and bigger and more unnatural looking, it was hard to know what was going on. Sure, some owners most have suspected it, and sure some probbly just crossed their fingers and hoped their guys weren't caught if it was true, but I don't think it was some kind of big money conspiracy to juice the players as much as possible.

    I hate to say this because it's kind of unfair, but look at LeBron James. I mean, the guy's arms have blown up to an incredible degree and despite the pounding and massive amounts of running that NBA players do, he just stays incredibly large. Would anybody be shocked in five years if we find out he is juicing? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. And yet, does anybody really know? What can you really do unless he tests positive or his name is unearthed in a clinic (which actually is rumored that it will...)

    Does this mean NBA owners 'don't care'? sure, the owners of the Heat right now probably don't care, but long term, I think teams are growing (or will grow) increasingly hesitant to sign guys to mega contracts as they could set their franchise back for years if those guys fall off the table and/or develop tendon problems (see the Angels) and they are left holding the bag.

    As for the players, I would suspect a very sizeable percentage of them, even if they are currently using, would like to see it all go away and compete on a level playing field. Let's assume Jeter is clean (and I know we can't truly assume anybody is). But suppose he is completely clean...don't you think he silently wishes he could have competed against all clean players all these years? As great as his career has been, what if his 15 to 18 home runs a year were put into context of the late 1970's, when 30 home runs was about the league best?

    I think the union is hesitant to give up ANY rights because it establishes precedent and erodes leverage, but on this one, I think a sea change is coming....(though that doesn't mean testers will ever keep up with the chemists....)

  7. #32
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    I would love to be able to void contracts due to it, but right now they can't as that was not agreed to in the CBA. I do think we need to strengthen the penalties as obviously 50 games isn't enough of a deterrent. How about 1 year first offense and lifetime ban the second.

  8. #33
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    I would love to be able to void contracts due to it, but right now they can't as that was not agreed to in the CBA. I do think we need to strengthen the penalties as obviously 50 games isn't enough of a deterrent. How about 1 year first offense and lifetime ban the second.
    Are you willing to sit through a work stoppage for the owners to get that power? The union would absolutely strike if something like that was brought to the table. Now, personally I think it would be horrible for them because not only would it be the players striking again, it would be the union protecting the minority (hopefully) of players who still use PEDs at the expense of every other clean player - and the fans would see it that way.

  9. #34
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    Are you willing to sit through a work stoppage for the owners to get that power? The union would absolutely strike if something like that was brought to the table. Now, personally I think it would be horrible for them because not only would it be the players striking again, it would be the union protecting the minority (hopefully) of players who still use PEDs at the expense of every other clean player - and the fans would see it that way.
    That is what many said several years back when many suggested we initiate drug testing. No work stoppage. I think there are enough players upset enough at the cheaters that it would pass, if it is evident that the current penalties are not a deterrant, and if this Miami situation is as big as it seems, then we might as well allow steroids because if what is about to come out does, then obviously the current program is a complete failure. (I've heard the 20 named are only the tip of the iceberg).

  10. #35
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Lola View Post
    Then why bother testing? If MLB doesn't care about PED use why should the fans. If they really want to clean this mess up they need to have stricter consequences.... voiding contracts would be a good place to start.
    Not doing anything would mean MLB didn't care. But they are doing what they can within the rules of the CBA. As I have stated and others have, if they try and just push the contract thing there will be a strike and nobody wants that.
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  11. #36
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Not doing anything would mean MLB didn't care. But they are doing what they can within the rules of the CBA. As I have stated and others have, if they try and just push the contract thing there will be a strike and nobody wants that.
    I agree, trying to do that now when that isn't part of the negotiated deal would cause a strike. But I think if it turns out the current testing and penalties are not working -- and if what is coming out of Miami turns out to be true, I think saying it is not working would be a very fair statement -- then I can see them negotiating a tougher policy next time. And for those saying "trying to do that will cause a strike" that's what everyone said 5 years and back when the idea of having ANY testing and penalties would happen, a long strike and guess what? No strike.

  12. #37
    Re2pect Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Well suspensions are one thing. Voiding contracts are quite another. I don't see it flying. I mean great if it does. But it's going to be a long and tedious path to getting this implemented. I think previously due to the black eye PEDs put on baseball the players had to give something. They had no choice.
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  13. #38
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Not doing anything would mean MLB didn't care. But they are doing what they can within the rules of the CBA. As I have stated and others have, if they try and just push the contract thing there will be a strike and nobody wants that.
    Just curious...what conditions currently exist that would enable a team to void a player's contract? Are there any? Are players' contracts vulnerable to any violations that could void them? Anyone know specifically what they are?
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  14. #39
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Well suspensions are one thing. Voiding contracts are quite another. I don't see it flying. I mean great if it does. But it's going to be a long and tedious path to getting this implemented. I think previously due to the black eye PEDs put on baseball the players had to give something. They had no choice.
    I think the story will be the same if the perception (if not also the reality) is that the current plan isn't working.

  15. #40

    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    Just curious...what conditions currently exist that would enable a team to void a player's contract? Are there any? Are players' contracts vulnerable to any violations that could void them? Anyone know specifically what they are?
    The uniform players' contract prohibits participation in a bunch of other sports, and I think a team can void a contract if a player gets hurt in violation of that. And individual contracts can modify or add to that. For example, it doesn't prohibit basketball, just professional basketball, but the yankees' contract with Aaron Boone prohibited any basketball, and that was voided after he got hurt.

    I assume if you're convicted of a felony a team could void your contract, even if you'd be out of jail before your contract was up, but I don't know for sure.

  16. #41
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk View Post
    The uniform players' contract prohibits participation in a bunch of other sports, and I think a team can void a contract if a player gets hurt in violation of that. And individual contracts can modify or add to that. For example, it doesn't prohibit basketball, just professional basketball, but the yankees' contract with Aaron Boone prohibited any basketball, and that was voided after he got hurt.

    I assume if you're convicted of a felony a team could void your contract, even if you'd be out of jail before your contract was up, but I don't know for sure.
    I believe the Rockies successfully terminated Denny Neagle's contract after he was arrested for patronizing a prostitute (and a really nasty-looking one at that). A year earlier, he'd been arrested and pled guilty on a drunk driving charge.
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  17. #42

    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I believe the Rockies successfully terminated Denny Neagle's contract after he was arrested for patronizing a prostitute (and a really nasty-looking one at that). A year earlier, he'd been arrested and pled guilty on a drunk driving charge.
    They tried to, and then settled when the players association appealed. He pretty much got all his money - $16MM of $19.5MM owed to him.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...act/index.html

  18. #43
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk View Post
    They tried to, and then settled when the players association appealed. He pretty much got all his money - $16MM of $19.5MM owed to him.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...act/index.html
    OK, I couldn't find the follow-up.

    That was what I figured would generally happen. A team can try to void a contract for lots of reasons. They virtually never do try, though, because they almost certainly won't get away with it.

    When it comes to PEDs, they really can't even try.
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  19. #44
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    OK, I couldn't find the follow-up.

    That was what I figured would generally happen. A team can try to void a contract for lots of reasons. They virtually never do try, though, because they almost certainly won't get away with it.

    When it comes to PEDs, they really can't even try.
    Or can they? As one of our fellow posters pointed out, a contract prohibiting playing basketball for example was voided when Aaron Boone got hurt playing basketball. It violated a clear contract term. Why could a team not build in a contract term that says a player may not be found guilty of PEDs? Tough maybe for a player to agree to, but let's say Cano is completely clean, confident that he will pass every test in the book, and is the only condition that could possibly stop him from agreeing to a hugely lucrative contract. He agrees, the team feels secure that they're not on the hook if he screws up his career, and everyone wins. What would stop teams from building such clauses into contracts? Why would players not sign on to such clauses if they're clean?
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  20. #45
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    Or can they? As one of our fellow posters pointed out, a contract prohibiting playing basketball for example was voided when Aaron Boone got hurt playing basketball. It violated a clear contract term. Why could a team not build in a contract term that says a player may not be found guilty of PEDs? Tough maybe for a player to agree to, but let's say Cano is completely clean, confident that he will pass every test in the book, and is the only condition that could possibly stop him from agreeing to a hugely lucrative contract. He agrees, the team feels secure that they're not on the hook if he screws up his career, and everyone wins. What would stop teams from building such clauses into contracts? Why would players not sign on to such clauses if they're clean?
    This is a non-starter. I really don't understand why people don't get that. The union and MLB have a working agreement that defines how PED use is tested for and how violators are punished. It's no different than if a team and a player agreed to a contract below the minimum pay rate for a major league player, or if a player tried to become a FA a year earlier than he was eligible. It's not happening.
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  21. #46
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    This is a non-starter. I really don't understand why people don't get that. The union and MLB have a working agreement that defines how PED use is tested for and how violators are punished. It's no different than if a team and a player agreed to a contract below the minimum pay rate for a major league player, or if a player tried to become a FA a year earlier than he was eligible. It's not happening.
    You may be right in that it's not happening, but teams can build any such conditions they want into contracts and players can accept or reject those conditions, can they not?
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  22. #47
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    You may be right in that it's not happening, but teams can build any such conditions they want into contracts and players can accept or reject those conditions, can they not?
    The union isn't letting that happen. The collective bargaining agreement sets the ground for contracts. Again, it's no different than if a team and a player agreed to a contract below the minimum salary - both sides have signed onto the rules, and they are legally binding.
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  23. #48
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    I don't know why I have to keep re-posting this, but:

    All authority to discipline Players for violations of the Program shall repose with the Commissioner's Office. No Club may take any disciplinary or adverse action against a Player (including but not limited to a fine, suspension, or any adverse action pursuant to a Uniform Player's Contract) because of a Player's violation of the Program.
    Sure, a team can write a clause into a contract, and a player can agree to it. But contracts have to be approved by MLB (and, I believe, the union), and that one wouldn't fly. And even if the contract didn't need that approval, you can't legally supersede collective bargaining.
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  24. #49
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I don't know why I have to keep re-posting this, but:



    Sure, a team can write a clause into a contract, and a player can agree to it. But contracts have to be approved by MLB (and, I believe, the union), and that one wouldn't fly. And even if the contract didn't need that approval, you can't legally supersede collective bargaining.
    That answers my question. Thanks for re-posting and clearing that up.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  25. #50
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    Re: Why can't major league contracts be voided if........

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I don't actually agree that owners and players as a whole just don't care about PED's. I think it's far more complicated than that. i don't think the majority of them object on moral grounds, but I do think increasingly teams are realizing how perilous their situation can become if, for example, they sign a player to a long term deal and then said players stops producing and/or his body begins to break down early in that deal.
    Stops producing and body breaking down early may have nothing to do with PED. And teams are realising that. No one forces them to hand out those long term deals and we're kidding ourselves if we think that teams don't know which players are taking PED.
    As for the players, I would suspect a very sizeable percentage of them, even if they are currently using, would like to see it all go away and compete on a level playing field. Let's assume Jeter is clean (and I know we can't truly assume anybody is). But suppose he is completely clean...don't you think he silently wishes he could have competed against all clean players all these years? As great as his career has been, what if his 15 to 18 home runs a year were put into context of the late 1970's, when 30 home runs was about the league best?
    Jeter wouldn't hit 15 to 18 home runs in 1970's. And there might be even fewer clean players in 1970's.
    I think the union is hesitant to give up ANY rights because it establishes precedent and erodes leverage, but on this one, I think a sea change is coming....(though that doesn't mean testers will ever keep up with the chemists....)
    No way the union allows the owners to void the contract because of PED. And the union shouldn't. If the owner can void players' contracts because of PED, there is even less incentive for them to care about the issue. Knowing that they can off the hook if the players get caught, there is no reason for them to voice out if they know someone takes PED.

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