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  1. #276
    Movin' on Bub's Avatar
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    ...
    As for CC I have a perhaps irrational faith that he will somehow become effective again.
    Nothing irrational about that. He has enough time, experience and determination to have a few more effective years, even if this year becomes a throw-away. I kind of think that he hasn't completely figured out how to pitch differently since his fastball has dropped in velocity, but I'm confident he will. How many years did we read about how Jeter is done (remember the age 34 thread?), that Pettitte is done, even that Rivera is done after some bumpy starts to the season?
    Let the kids play.

  2. #277

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Not to jump to any conclusions, but with the opt out clauses, can't we just once get out while we're ahead?

    Hey, we got our money' worth- go find someone else to overpay you into your retirement!
    No... it's not the "Yankee way".....
    Roger Maris = single season "natural" home-run record-holder.

  3. #278

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    Nothing irrational about that. He has enough time, experience and determination to have a few more effective years, even if this year becomes a throw-away. I kind of think that he hasn't completely figured out how to pitch differently since his fastball has dropped in velocity, but I'm confident he will. How many years did we read about how Jeter is done (remember the age 34 thread?), that Pettitte is done, even that Rivera is done after some bumpy starts to the season?
    Thing is his velocity has increased from the 89/90 at the start of the year

    Ironic thing is that he was actually more productive w/ the lower velocity

    If there's no physical problem, you'd have to think he'll sort it out somehow. It is troubling that the velocity has increased along with a loss of control. Usually signs of elbow problems, but who knows
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  4. #279

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    How many mega contracts does it take to convince people the market has shifted?

    By the time we signed CC for 24.4 per, Cliff Lee already got 24 per, Santana 22.9per, Matt Cain 21.25 per (and that was an extension) . After CC, Hamels 24 per, Zack Greinke 24.5 per, Felix Hernandez 25 per, and Verlander 25.7 per. And most of these guys weren't even free agents.

    We didn't overpay for CC. Arguably he could have gotten a better contract in the open market, from someone else even.

  5. #280

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    How many mega contracts have to happen before you're convinced the market has shifted?

    By the time we signed CC, Cliff Lee already got 24 per, Santana 22.9per, Matt Cain 21.25 per (and that was an extension) . After CC, Hamels 24 per, Zack Greinke 24.5 per, Felix Hernandez 25 per, and Verlander 25.7 per. And most of these guys weren't even free agents.

    We didn't overpay for CC. Arguably he could have bent the Yankees over harder than he actually did.
    Absolutely

    I'd hate to think what the last 4 years would have been w/o him anchoring the staff.

    No one could have predicted him falling off the table as he's done. Even w/ a much more productive farm system than ours, a team w/ yearly championship aspirations is gonna need free agents
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  6. #281

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    cc's velo is listed at 89-90 in ootp14, prophetic powers
    always reasonable

  7. #282
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    How many mega contracts does it take to convince people the market has shifted?

    By the time we signed CC for 24.4 per, Cliff Lee already got 24 per, Santana 22.9per, Matt Cain 21.25 per (and that was an extension) . After CC, Hamels 24 per, Zack Greinke 24.5 per, Felix Hernandez 25 per, and Verlander 25.7 per. And most of these guys weren't even free agents.

    We didn't overpay for CC. Arguably he could have gotten a better contract in the open market, from someone else even.

    I disagree but we'll never know. All those guys were younger than CC at the time of contract. I just don't see a lot of teams lining up to pay a guy with 2500 innings under his belt 5/$122 going into his age 31 season. A year and half in this looks pretty bad. Let's hope he can figure it out.

    The other thing is that a lot of posters seem to think the Yankees can just waste money because they are the Yankees. We're seeing right now that they can't. Shaving a year or two off of contracts like CC's or ARod's or Cano's upcoming monstrosity can be be the difference in having to stand pat or being able to add a potentially valuable piece.
    DFA ARod.

  8. #283
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    Absolutely

    I'd hate to think what the last 4 years would have been w/o him anchoring the staff.

    No one could have predicted him falling off the table as he's done. Even w/ a much more productive farm system than ours, a team w/ yearly championship aspirations is gonna need free agents
    CC opted out after 2011 so you're looking at 2012 and 2/3 of 2013. $23 mil can buy a lot of pitching. They surely would have been able to bring in a starter who could have given them at least close to what CC has given them probably for less $.
    DFA ARod.

  9. #284
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    He's good for something:

    Lohud Yankees Blog @LoHudYankees
    CC just went second deck during pitchers batting practice.

  10. #285

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    I disagree but we'll never know. All those guys were younger than CC at the time of contract. I just don't see a lot of teams lining up to pay a guy with 2500 innings under his belt 5/$122 going into his age 31 season. A year and half in this looks pretty bad. Let's hope he can figure it out.

    The other thing is that a lot of posters seem to think the Yankees can just waste money because they are the Yankees. We're seeing right now that they can't. Shaving a year or two off of contracts like CC's or ARod's or Cano's upcoming monstrosity can be be the difference in having to stand pat or being able to add a potentially valuable piece.

    Cliff Lee's contract at age 32 takes him to age 36 at 24 per.

    CC's contract at age 31 takes him to age 35 season at 24.4 per.

    Verlander's extension starts at age 30 and takes him to age 36 for 25.7 per.

    Hamels' extension starts at age 29 and goes to age 34 for 24 per.

    Further back, Santana's extension started at age 29 and will go to age 34 for 22.9 per

    The market for ace pitchers in the 29~32 range is pretty set. Mid 20s per year to take the guy to age 34~36. Expect the AAV to go up as MLB revenues continue to climb (in large part thanks to Murdoch pumping TV money into MLB)

  11. #286
    Devoted Member
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    OK good information. I would say that IMO Lee, Verlander and Santana are/were all a notch better than CC. Lee's career really took a jump staring in 2008.
    DFA ARod.

  12. #287
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Memo to CC:

    Your fastball isn't what it used to be. Learn to nibble.
    CC doesn't nibble. He swallows cheeseburgers in one bite.

  13. #288

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    CC opted out after 2011 so you're looking at 2012 and 2/3 of 2013. $23 mil can buy a lot of pitching. They surely would have been able to bring in a starter who could have given them at least close to what CC has given them probably for less $.
    IIRC correctly, at the time of his deal he was far and away the best option. Who else was available then that they could have signed?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  14. #289
    Devoted Member
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    IIRC correctly, at the time of his deal he was far and away the best option. Who else was available then that they could have signed?
    Not trying to cop out on you here but that's Cashman's job to figure out. With $23 mil to play with they could have explored other FA options or trade options with teams looking to dump salary. I can't tell you what that FA class was like but with that amount of $$ flexibility they certainly could have brought a quality starter via FA or trade. Look at the Phillies right now, maybe they deal Lee and even pick up part the $$$.

    It's always a one way street with these guys. They reap the benefits of playing in NY (hello short porch Cano) but hold up the Yankees for every last dime. I'm sorry CC, is getting $23 mil a year and you know winning lots of games with a great offense (giving yourself a chance to maybe get in the HOF) and getting a WS ring so painful that you need more? They should have told him to piss off and because they didn't that's likely another $50 mil (2016-17) down the drain that could have been used elsewhere.

    Even St. Andy for Christ sake - the guy has literally no other options in terms of pitching in MLB and they're still shelling out $12 mil for less than league average performance. I equate him with Wakefield who made what a third of that with Boston?

    It's not about being cheap or vindictive - it's hurts the team to overpay.
    DFA ARod.

  15. #290
    Pinpoint False1's Avatar
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Not trying to cop out on you here but that's Cashman's job to figure out. With $23 mil to play with they could have explored other FA options or trade options with teams looking to dump salary. I can't tell you what that FA class was like but with that amount of $$ flexibility they certainly could have brought a quality starter via FA or trade. Look at the Phillies right now, maybe they deal Lee and even pick up part the $$$.

    It's always a one way street with these guys. They reap the benefits of playing in NY (hello short porch Cano) but hold up the Yankees for every last dime. I'm sorry CC, is getting $23 mil a year and you know winning lots of games with a great offense (giving yourself a chance to maybe get in the HOF) and getting a WS ring so painful that you need more? They should have told him to piss off and because they didn't that's likely another $50 mil (2016-17) down the drain that could have been used elsewhere.

    Even St. Andy for Christ sake - the guy has literally no other options in terms of pitching in MLB and they're still shelling out $12 mil for less than league average performance. I equate him with Wakefield who made what a third of that with Boston?

    It's not about being cheap or vindictive - it's hurts the team to overpay.
    But it is a cop out. You don't even know what the widely available/rumored list of other options was, you just know Cashman should have done something else?

    Also, check your facts. Cano is not some short-porch-freak-of-nature. He hits better on the road than at home. And Andy is getting some extra $$ due to the mutually beneficial string of 1 year deals. And you equate him to Wakefield? That's... creative.

  16. #291
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    And you equate him to Wakefield? That's... creative.
    Never mind equating them in terms of pitching talent or success, which is...creative to begin with. But Wakefield also signed one of the most absurdly team-friendly contracts ever, not comparable to any other.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  17. #292

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Never mind equating them in terms of pitching talent or success, which is...creative to begin with. But Wakefield also signed one of the most absurdly team-friendly contracts ever, not comparable to any other.
    That was the worst contract evah.

    The sawx have done very well getting talent @ below market values

    Lester ( even w/ the last 2 years performance )

    Ortiz from 04 to 2010

    Pedroia, Youkilis also were very good deals for them
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  18. #293

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigi Buffon View Post
    Not trying to cop out on you here but that's Cashman's job to figure out. With $23 mil to play with they could have explored other FA options or trade options with teams looking to dump salary. I can't tell you what that FA class was like but with that amount of $$ flexibility they certainly could have brought a quality starter via FA or trade. Look at the Phillies right now, maybe they deal Lee and even pick up part the $$$.

    It's always a one way street with these guys. They reap the benefits of playing in NY (hello short porch Cano) but hold up the Yankees for every last dime. I'm sorry CC, is getting $23 mil a year and you know winning lots of games with a great offense (giving yourself a chance to maybe get in the HOF) and getting a WS ring so painful that you need more? They should have told him to piss off and because they didn't that's likely another $50 mil (2016-17) down the drain that could have been used elsewhere.

    Even St. Andy for Christ sake - the guy has literally no other options in terms of pitching in MLB and they're still shelling out $12 mil for less than league average performance. I equate him with Wakefield who made what a third of that with Boston?

    It's not about being cheap or vindictive - it's hurts the team to overpay.
    CC was far and away the best choice. He only cost money and a pitcher of his caliber reaching free agency is getting rarer and rarer. I remember the time well and there was no other option remotely as attractive. We didn't have to gut the farm system
    I'd also defy anyone to come with dated posts that said they were sure he'd fall apart in 2013- he's always been a consistent innings eater

    It's easy in hindsight, but that's a deal you have to make everytime
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdvM0IB5Sbs

    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGGRESSIVE

  19. #294
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Excuse me, does he have a WS Ring?

  20. #295

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    He's good for something:
    Yeah. As a 23 million dollar paperweight.

  21. #296

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.roy View Post
    Excuse me, does he have a WS Ring?
    While CC has been a stud (except for this year), a World Series ring doesn't mean anything when evaluating a player.

  22. #297
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.roy View Post
    Excuse me, does he have a WS Ring?
    Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin have the same WS ring
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  23. #298

    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    I need some sensual dark chocolate. Pls CC, next start.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  24. #299
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    While CC has been a stud (except for this year), a World Series ring doesn't mean anything when evaluating a player.
    Evaluating his performance in 2009.........he earned every bit of that Ring.
    He also was a huge reason the Yankees won that WC.

  25. #300
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    Re: CC Sabathia 2013 Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Sergio Mitre and Chad Gaudin have the same WS ring
    Yeah right. How lame. Stop the nonsense, please.

    Go back and look at 2009 pitching lines for those 3 players.
    Are you seriously going to tell me CC wasn't a top reason the Yankees won a WC..........especially compared to those 2 pitchers.

    I was kind of referring to iddeyi post, about the signing of CC and his contract.
    He was a big reason that the Yankees won at least 1 WSC in 10 plus years.

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