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  1. #101
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    That does sort of seem like buying a couple hundred bucks worth of scratch-offs for a five dollar winner and thinking you're ahead of the game
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    I guess it could help them re-sign cano, but $12 mil now to help with $2 mil of Cano's salary next year sounds pretty demented. 2014 dollars are expensive, but 2013 dollars still count
    Well, they're getting I think $7MM from the WBC due to the Tex injury this year. They could have put that in their pocket, but instead invested all of it and then some in Wells' 2013 cost.

    And if they do indeed get a $2MM credit for '14 and that helps them reset the lux tax and gain all the benefits associated with that then my understanding is that this money, even if it's throw-away in terms of on the field production, will pay for itself several times over when considering longer term lux tax and revenue sharing implications.

  2. #102

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    with the money coming off in 2014, i'd be surprised if the final 2m is that high value. they can't cut a bit of corner elsewhere to find 2m?

    the only thing this shows is that this 2013 season is completely tanked.
    always reasonable

  3. #103
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    I like nothing about this deal.

    - Fudging your way around the luxury tax is a pretty good way to guarantee that the other owners go after you twice as hard when they get the chance
    - Roster spots are a commodity, and this is a waste of one
    - What's the point of looking for bargain OF depth if you never get a chance to see what it's worth?
    - What message does this send to other potential FA signings for our bench in the future? 'Hey, you're there for depth, but if we need you, we'll go get a worthless veteran instead. So definitely sign with us'?
    - Wells is No Longer A Good Baseball Player

    Double yeuch with yeuch on top.

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  4. #104
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    with the money coming off in 2014, i'd be surprised if the final 2m is that high value. they can't cut a bit of corner elsewhere to find 2m?

    the only thing this shows is that this 2013 season is completely tanked.
    I disagree with both your points. $2MM is not chump change. If it were easy/sensible to cut corners, why stop at $2MM? Why not find another $2MM, and another $2MM after that? $2MM matters... we'll see if it matters enough.

    How does not pocketing $7MM in insurance money for Tex and instead putting an extra ~$5MM on top of that in '13 signal they're sh*tcanning this season? I would think sinking that money and taking an unlikely gamble he could contribute would show the opposite.

  5. #105

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    it's harder to get 2m in a single deal, but in the entire budget it's easier to find. this is why they can't get 2m just anywhere. my comment was mainly on the probable low value of an additional 2m lux tax room, although that would have to depend on what they want to do next yearr


    the money spent on wells is not for this season. his performance has no contribution to what the value in the deal is. if they wanted to compete for this season they'd have gotten swish and whomever were on the market back when there was a fa pool
    always reasonable

  6. #106
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    The only way I'll view this as a win is if these account tricks make it more likely to sign Cano long term.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #107
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    it's harder to get 2m in a single deal, but in the entire budget it's easier to find. this is why they can't get 2m just anywhere.


    the money spent on wells is not for this season. his performance has no contribution to what the value in the deal is. if they wanted to compete for this season they'd have gotten swish and whomever were on the market back when there was a fa pool
    ...and then next year have absolutely no chance to re-up with Cano, Granderson, or fill any other holes that will be created by expiring contacts. They're thinking beyond this season, which is why they're throwing bad money at Wells with the slimmest of hopes he can have a positive impact on this year but with the ultimate goal of creating flexibility next year.

    It's possible (not probable, nor necessarily preferable) that they have a 4OF for next season that basically CONTRIBUTES $2MM in payroll reductions next season. How does that not make sense? If he sucks, you cut him, you replace him with a league minimum guy with some upside and you still SAVE >$1MM towards $189MM target. I don't see the difficulty in understanding how this move makes sense. You can't compare this acquisition to the decisions to let Swisher and Martin walk.

  8. #108
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Don't disagree, and surprised that they had to take on $13MM for basically a replacement player. But again it supports the strategy of containing payroll for next season. While $2MM isn't a whole lot in the context of $189MM (~1%), that $80MM has to cover a lot of holes. If that $2MM creates flexibility for getting the AAV right for Cano or other longer term solutions while still shooting for a number that resets their penalties before '15 then it makes sense.

    The only downside is it may prevent a younger, potentially longer-term and lower cost solution emerge from the farm. That would be offset somewhat if Wells surprises and actually provides some RH power.
    This, btw, gets back to my position in the "small-market" thread. No, they're not literally acting like a small-market team (not that those are monolithic anyway), and any reference to the money they've shelled out for 2013 is irrelevant. But their decisions seem to be guided by (2104) payroll considerations rather than putting together a good baseball team. I fear that this will lead them to a lower payroll and a worse team.

    Wells is a bad baseball player, but he's good for the 2014 payroll.
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  9. #109
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    The only way I'll view this as a win is if these account tricks make it more likely to sign Cano long term.
    Clearly it makes it more likely, but doesn't guarantee anything. The goal is to get under $189MM next season, not necessarily to stay there. So assuming Cano's terms aren't unreasonable, this gives them the ability to have an extra $2MM in AAV to negotiate with. When his ask is going to be >$20MM+ AAV, that's 10% wiggle room they just created.

  10. #110
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    This, btw, gets back to my position in the "small-market" thread. No, they're not literally acting like a small-market team (not that those are monolithic anyway), and any reference to the money they've shelled out for 2013 is irrelevant. But their decisions seem to be guided by (2104) payroll considerations rather than putting together a good baseball team. I fear that this will lead them to a lower payroll and a worse team.

    Wells is a bad baseball player, but he's good for the 2014 payroll.
    As opposed to what though? Continuing to shell out 10/$250MM contracts for players nearing the end of or even past their primes?

    I respect the heck out of your opinions/acumen on various subjects, but to me all you're saying here is that the model has changed and that could lead to a reduction in historically high levels of consistent production. Yeah, no one is going to argue that... but any reference or analogy to small market/austerity is absolute rubbish.

  11. #111

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    ...and then next year have absolutely no chance to re-up with Cano, Granderson, or fill any other holes that will be created by expiring contacts. They're thinking beyond this season, which is why they're throwing bad money at Wells with the slimmest of hopes he can have a positive impact on this year but with the ultimate goal of creating flexibility next year.

    It's possible (not probable, nor necessarily preferable) that they have a 4OF for next season that basically CONTRIBUTES $2MM in payroll reductions next season. How does that not make sense? If he sucks, you cut him, you replace him with a league minimum guy with some upside and you still SAVE >$1MM towards $189MM target. I don't see the difficulty in understanding how this move makes sense. You can't compare this acquisition to the decisions to let Swisher and Martin walk.
    tanking a season is not bad. that's your argument here. i see we agree on this point.

    btw, getting a decent player for this season is not that detrimental to future plans. a good contract is a good contract as long as the player performs above the pay. swish is not necessarily this guy but just as an example, he is more worthwhile performance wise than wells if you assign similar value for this year's wins as next year's wins and so on. the idea that this year's wins are not worth a lot is pretty much as obvious as you can get.
    always reasonable

  12. #112
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by PaidYoung View Post
    Why are people in such an uproar?

    Vernon Wells essentially replaces Andruw Jones from last year.

    Brennan Bosch, Vernon Wells, Stewart, Jayson Nix , Eduard Nunez give us a quality bench once everyone gets healthy.

    CALM DOWN!
    I think you're confusing "uproar" with "wtf?"

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  13. #113

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    this is not to say this 2013 team can't compete. yankees have a baseline performance target in the sense of getting to the playoffs is very very important, so their win target is pretty high in usual seasons.

    it's not the case this year, probably even without the tex injury. but, this is the cost of getting 2014 in order. the upside is still there to compete for at least a wildcard spot, but obviously the potential for collapse is also there. (if the red sox did stuff like this, they'd be obvious material for the "low risk high upside" joke.. otherwise known as a crapshoot) in more usual times, that would have been an unacceptable risk, but not for 2013. if it sucks it sucks, whatever. that's the official approach to this season. maybe this is not tanking per se, but it's certainly a big departure from the usual pace.
    always reasonable

  14. #114

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    This, btw, gets back to my position in the "small-market" thread. No, they're not literally acting like a small-market team (not that those are monolithic anyway), and any reference to the money they've shelled out for 2013 is irrelevant. But their decisions seem to be guided by (2104) payroll considerations rather than putting together a good baseball team. I fear that this will lead them to a lower payroll and a worse team.

    Wells is a bad baseball player, but he's good for the 2014 payroll.
    But the ultimate irony in this is that the horrible position the Yankees find themselves in right now entering this season is that they have never acted like anything but a huge market team all along. And to a very high degree, that's worked well for them as they made the postseason 17 of the last 18 years and have five rings during that time.

    But they have reached the limits of what they can do with these huge contracts. if ARod and Tex's contracts weren't on the books, none of these issues would exist right now. and I hold my breath and hope that Sabathia's contract doesn't join them soon as giant albatrosses.

    Doing what they can to reset the luxury tax on a one year event by getting to $189mm next year is completely sensible for the long term benefit of the team both on and off the field. It's a one year target and then after that they can spend away.

    And 28 other teams in baseball will still be south of that $189mm number. Small market teams don't have to worry about any of this...

    Look at the Angels right now. Pujols has some serious foot and knee problems suddenly. And I'm not sold that Hamilton isn't already on a decline. These mega contracts generally don't work out for teams long term...particularly teams that don' thave cost controlled cores.

  15. #115

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Don't disagree, and surprised that they had to take on $13MM for basically a replacement player. But again it supports the strategy of containing payroll for next season. While $2MM isn't a whole lot in the context of $189MM (~1%), that $80MM has to cover a lot of holes. If that $2MM creates flexibility for getting the AAV right for Cano or other longer term solutions while still shooting for a number that resets their penalties before '15 then it makes sense.

    The only downside is it may prevent a younger, potentially longer-term and lower cost solution emerge from the farm. That would be offset somewhat if Wells surprises and actually provides some RH power.
    And therein lies the problem. The "get under $189M" is gonna go down as a worse error than Hank's deal w/ Arod

    The 20-30M they might save next year has already cost them- in terms of not signing Cespedes/Darvish/Hamilton. It's wrong headed because they've decided to hand cuff themselves financially at a time when other clubs are swimming in cash- and spending it. It comes at a time when their advantage in International signings is gone. It comes at a time when they can't dangle above slot $$$ in the amateur draft ( not that that did them much good anyway )

    If they had the personnel in the minors to fill slots then you could see the logic. As it is, they'll be lucky if one of the highly touted position players in the low minors turns into a star. If they had the players and THEN decided to limit payroll as a result, thier position would be defensible- but they did it bass ackwards.

    Arguing about the cleverness of saving $$ by inking Wells misses the larger blunder underlying their decision making
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  16. #116

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    the darvish thing was brutal. if you want to waste 13m on wells why not waste 50m for darvish's posting fee and get a player that's way more 2m under the contract value. lol kei igawa effect
    always reasonable

  17. #117
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    But the ultimate irony in this is that the horrible position the Yankees find themselves in right now entering this season is that they have never acted like anything but a huge market team all along. And to a very high degree, that's worked well for them as they made the postseason 17 of the last 18 years and have five rings during that time.

    But they have reached the limits of what they can do with these huge contracts. if ARod and Tex's contracts weren't on the books, none of these issues would exist right now. and I hold my breath and hope that Sabathia's contract doesn't join them soon as giant albatrosses.

    Doing what they can to reset the luxury tax on a one year event by getting to $189mm next year is completely sensible for the long term benefit of the team both on and off the field. It's a one year target and then after that they can spend away.

    And 28 other teams in baseball will still be south of that $189mm number. Small market teams don't have to worry about any of this...

    Look at the Angels right now. Pujols has some serious foot and knee problems suddenly. And I'm not sold that Hamilton isn't already on a decline. These mega contracts generally don't work out for teams long term...particularly teams that don' thave cost controlled cores.
    Actually, it's probably a two-year strategy, so they can maximize their revenue-sharing refund as well.

    I don't see how it benefits the team on the field in any way. I'm not saying that they had to go out and sign all the biggest contracts they could find; those were probably not good ideas. And yes, they're burdened by the contracts they already have. That's what makes quick, short-term cost-cutting such a dangerous strategy - as ieddyi says, they simply don't have the system to back that up.

    Cutting salary is not a strategy for building a baseball team. It's only a strategy for cutting salary.
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  18. #118
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    the darvish thing was brutal. if you want to waste 13m on wells why not waste 50m for darvish's posting fee and get a player that's way more 2m under the contract value. lol kei igawa effect
    $106 million for 6 years for a guy that has never thrown a pitch in the major leagues is pretty steep. That's a little under 18 million a year.
    Still not convinced.
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  19. #119

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    $106 million for 6 years for a guy that has never thrown a pitch in the major leagues is pretty steep. That's a little under 18 million a year.
    Still not convinced.
    if you take this information that they are about 5:1 on the willingness to spend for lux tax cap, darvish costs about 70m.

    without the posting fee his contract is very reasonable.

    and if he was a sure thing he'd get a total cost of 200m not 100m.
    always reasonable

  20. #120
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    if you take this information that they are about 5:1 on the willingness to spend for lux tax cap, darvish costs about 70m.

    without the posting fee his contract is very reasonable.

    and if he was a sure thing he'd get a total cost of 200m not 100m.
    So the Yankees could have signed Darvish without posting any money?
    You HAVE to consider the posting fee. It's part of the process of siging the player.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  21. #121

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    that cost does not impact the luxury tax.

    it's quite a lot of money up front, but there's always financing
    always reasonable

  22. #122
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    $106 million for 6 years for a guy that has never thrown a pitch in the major leagues is pretty steep. That's a little under 18 million a year.
    Still not convinced.
    I was the same prior to last year but the dude is the sh!t.
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  23. #123
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    that cost does not impact the luxury tax.

    it's quite a lot of money up front, but there's always financing
    It doesn't matter if the posting fee impacts the luxury tax.
    It's still money that comes out of the owners' pockets.
    Disregarding it is simply stating that the Yankees are playing by different rules. And they're not.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  24. #124

    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    the precise statement would be, [this vernon wells deal] makes darvish nonpursuit even worse.

    because there is information in thew ells deal that puts the lux cap at high importance, while pure money at comparatively very low.
    always reasonable

  25. #125
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    Re: Sources: Yanks to get Vernon Wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I was the same prior to last year but the dude is the sh!t.
    He did much better than I thought he would but I'm still not a believer yet.
    Let me see another year of 116 ERA+.... But even then, is that worth 18 mil a year?
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

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