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  1. #1

    Lightbulb It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    If you are a pitcher, and you are not a starter or THE Closer, that means you pretty much suck....like a Chamberlain sort.

    The managers and team go out of their way to get these closers saves to inflate their stats.

    A guy like Mo ( your best pitcher for a few outs) should be more of a "Stopper" than a "Closer"

    Bring him in anytime after the 5th inning in a tight game when your starter or reliever(s) have gotten themselves into a situation that needs to be STOPPED before the game is blown wide open and no save opportunity ever comes about. That seems like it will happen a lot this season with the anemic line-up we will have.

    Say a road game in Detroit, tied in the bottom of the 7th. Tigers load the bases with one out....you need to CLOSE them down here, bring in MO instead of some Schmuck like Joba, then assuming He gets out of it with no more than one run, he pitches the 8th inning also.

    Use your best when needed.

    Mo has been under-used.....and all closers for that matter.

    Rivera has probably been paid more money per pitch or inning than any other pitcher ( barring injury guys that only threw a few pitches and faded away).

    Baseball managers and football coaches are idiots !

  2. #2

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    If you are a pitcher, and you are not a starter or THE Closer, that means you pretty much suck....like a Chamberlain sort.

    The managers and team go out of their way to get these closers saves to inflate their stats.

    A guy like Mo ( your best pitcher for a few outs) should be more of a "Stopper" than a "Closer"

    Bring him in anytime after the 5th inning in a tight game when your starter or reliever(s) have gotten themselves into a situation that needs to be STOPPED before the game is blown wide open and no save opportunity ever comes about. That seems like it will happen a lot this season with the anemic line-up we will have.

    Say a road game in Detroit, tied in the bottom of the 7th. Tigers load the bases with one out....you need to CLOSE them down here, bring in MO instead of some Schmuck like Joba, then assuming He gets out of it with no more than one run, he pitches the 8th inning also.

    Use your best when needed.

    Mo has been under-used.....and all closers for that matter.

    Rivera has probably been paid more money per pitch or inning than any other pitcher ( barring injury guys that only threw a few pitches and faded away).

    Baseball managers and football coaches are idiots !
    I'm assuming your sparkling career as a GM that created a long lasting dynasty using the most innovative efficiency creating strategies will back this last statement up?

    Its well documented that closers perform better in the 9th inning and in save situations than in a tie game or any other inning.

    Having a stopper type reliever and having a closer are not the same thing. David Robertson is that guy for us right now. It used to be Joba.
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  3. #3
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    I absolutely and totally disagree with you. Back in the 50's Allie Reynolds both started and relieved and when he relieved he usually came in as you described. The great Joe Page was also used as anywhere from a 1-5 inning pitcher. But the game has changed and I daresay, IMHO of course, that if Mo had been used as you suggest, we wouldn't have had as many wins or championships. But this is merely my opinionand we will never know which one of us is right.

    As far as your comment an the intellegence of coaches, you are way off base. Start drinking something less strong
    Respectfully

    Andy
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  4. #4
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Reminds of a favorite quote, by (appropriately enough) Brian Cashman:

    "If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting with them soon enough".
    He'll never get another milestone like that one. So what? His whole career is a milestone. - JL25and3

  5. #5

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    I see your thoughts behind the post, but I can't agree with them.

    Mo is meant to the 9th and beyond, at earliest the 8th. No earlier though.

  6. #6
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by HerbieLee20 View Post
    Reminds of a favorite quote, by (appropriately enough) Brian Cashman:

    "If you listen to the fans, you'll be sitting with them soon enough".
    Case closed.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  7. #7

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    If you are a pitcher, and you are not a starter or THE Closer, that means you pretty much suck....like a Chamberlain sort.

    The managers and team go out of their way to get these closers saves to inflate their stats.

    A guy like Mo ( your best pitcher for a few outs) should be more of a "Stopper" than a "Closer"

    Bring him in anytime after the 5th inning in a tight game when your starter or reliever(s) have gotten themselves into a situation that needs to be STOPPED before the game is blown wide open and no save opportunity ever comes about. That seems like it will happen a lot this season with the anemic line-up we will have.

    Say a road game in Detroit, tied in the bottom of the 7th. Tigers load the bases with one out....you need to CLOSE them down here, bring in MO instead of some Schmuck like Joba, then assuming He gets out of it with no more than one run, he pitches the 8th inning also.

    Use your best when needed.

    Mo has been under-used.....and all closers for that matter.

    Rivera has probably been paid more money per pitch or inning than any other pitcher ( barring injury guys that only threw a few pitches and faded away).

    Baseball managers and football coaches are idiots !
    I think you're on to something. With Mo being use more effectively, we may have made the playoffs 18 times out of the last 18 seasons, instead of the unacceptable 17.
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  8. #8
    Trade Bait Mr.Muhozi's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I think you're on to something. With Mo being use more effectively, we may have made the playoffs 18 times out of the last 18 seasons, instead of the unacceptable 17.
    2001 and 2004 never would've happened as well.
    40 pitchers, ever, have an ERA+ of 130 or higher for their career. 15 have 140 or higher. 3 guys have 150 or higher - one is right at 150, the second place guy is at 154, and Mariano Rivera is at 205.

  9. #9
    NYYFans Member Stick Michael's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Doug, Your statement resembles Bill James' philosophy on relievers/closers. While James certainly has an exceptional ability to analyze statistics, both common and obscure, he forgot a crucial, very human element when coming to his conclusion: pitching the 9th inning is a different element from pitching earlier in the game. Even if crucial situations arise in the 5th, 6th and 7th - as they frequently do, their outcomes never result in the game ending right then and there.

  10. #10
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Michael View Post
    Doug, Your statement resembles Bill James' philosophy on relievers/closers. While James certainly has an exceptional ability to analyze statistics, both common and obscure, he forgot a crucial, very human element when coming to his conclusion: pitching the 9th inning is a different element from pitching earlier in the game. Even if crucial situations arise in the 5th, 6th and 7th - as they frequently do, their outcomes never result in the game ending right then and there.
    Is it really? Is there any evidence at that? Sure, some pitchers get moved into the closer spot, fail a few times, and it's immediately said that they can't handle the pressure of the ninth inning. Some players even talk about feeling it when they're moved into that position. But how much of that is amplified by everyone saying, "Can he handle the unique pressures of the ninth inning? We're going to give him a chance to close, to see if he can handle the pressure. Don't worry, kid, we think you can handle the intense and unique pressure. Don't choke up, now!"

    Most of the time, closing out a game is probably the best usage. But sometimes...if it's the seventh inning, up by two runs, runners on second and third with one out, which strategy is really more effective?

    1. Bring in Rivera with the confidence that, if anyone can minimize the damage, he can; then, if you still have a ninth-inning lead, see if Joba (or even Eppley or Rapada) can come in with the bases empty and get three outs. Most of the time, they will.

    2. Bring in Eppley or Rapada in that seventh-inning situation and count on them to get out of it, saving Rivera for that all-important bases-empty three-out save situation.

    Are the pressures of the ninth inning really so unlike anything else that it's easier to face that seventh-inning situation than to get three outs with no baserunners? I don't believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne
    Its well documented that closers perform better in the 9th inning and in save situations than in a tie game or any other inning.
    Is it really? I'd like a link to that documentation. I think it's more like something people just say a lot. If Rivera blows a save situation in the ninth, John Sterling says, well, he's human. When he pitches poorly in any other situation - 8th inning, tie game, 4-run lead, whatever - it's because he can't pitch effectively except under the stat-defined conditions.

    Rivera's career stats:

    Save situations - 784.1 IP, 1.92 ERA, 0.924 WHIP, 8.2 K/9, opponents hit .202/.250/.272
    Non-save situations - 385.1 IP, 2.34 ERA, 1.059 WHIP, 8.5 K/9, opponents .212/.269/.296

    9th inning - 880.2 IP, 2.01 ERA, .208/.254/.282
    8th inning - 133.0 IP, 1.76 ERA, .185/.233/.269
    (Other innings have sample sizes too small to be worth discussing.)

    Where's the evidence that Rivera is uniquely effective in ninth-inning save situations? That you gain more by letting Eppley work out of a game-on-the-line jam and saving Rivera for the ninth, if you make it, than by doing it the other way around?
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  11. #11

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    After this, can we re-visit "clutch"?
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  12. #12
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    This is something I see happening as we move forward in baseball. Pitchers are more effective in short dominating spurts then they are holding back to try and get through deep games. Unless your name is Justin Verlander anyway.

    But the game will not go that way for a while. Pitchers are paid enormous amounts of money to do what they do. Someone is going to have to really step up to even get this going. The Rockies tried it last year but because they suck no one pays attention. If it's ever done and a team wins people will pay attention.

    I know some teams have done it over the years but they were so heavily mocked they stopped doing it. Didn't LaRussa try it about 10 years ago? 15 maybe?
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  13. #13
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    This is something I see happening as we move forward in baseball. Pitchers are more effective in short dominating spurts then they are holding back to try and get through deep games. Unless your name is Justin Verlander anyway.

    But the game will not go that way for a while. Pitchers are paid enormous amounts of money to do what they do. Someone is going to have to really step up to even get this going. The Rockies tried it last year but because they suck no one pays attention. If it's ever done and a team wins people will pay attention.

    I know some teams have done it over the years but they were so heavily mocked they stopped doing it. Didn't LaRussa try it about 10 years ago? 15 maybe?
    What you're talking about is a much heavier and more frequent reliance on the back end of the bullpen, which is rarely a good idea. Even after a few innings, most starters are going to be better than your worst relievers.

    LaRussa didn't take his starters out that early, but once he went to his bullpen, he made tons of pitching changes - he was really into batter-by-batter matchups. It made for incredibly tedious ballgames.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #14

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Relievers tend to fall apart after 70+ appearances in a season.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  15. #15

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    I'm not sure if the premise of this thread is actually serious.
    Roger Maris = single season "natural" home-run record-holder.

  16. #16
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Muhozi View Post
    2001 and 2004 never would've happened as well.
    But the Yankees won it all in 2009 so that erases 2001 and 2004.
    "Losing is not my enemy, fear of losing is my enemy." - Tennis champion Rafael Nadal

  17. #17
    Win or else BroadwayBomber55's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    My reaction to this thread
    "Losing is not my enemy, fear of losing is my enemy." - Tennis champion Rafael Nadal

  18. #18
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerNatural View Post
    I'm not sure if the premise of this thread is actually serious.
    Well maybe or maybe not. But Bill James has spoken about this strategy before.
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  19. #19
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Eventually we may see some of these reforms implemented in the game but for now it ain't happening. I don't think maximizing the run value of your relief pitching is that big of a deal either compared to other stupid stuff like bunting.

  20. #20

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    It's too bad that certain people have the ability to create such terrible, useless threads !

  21. #21
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Eventually we may see some of these reforms implemented in the game but for now it ain't happening. I don't think maximizing the run value of your relief pitching is that big of a deal either compared to other stupid stuff like bunting.
    Considering the frequency of bunting compared with the frequency of relief pitching, I disagree completely.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  22. #22
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYankeesFan92 View Post
    It's too bad that certain people have the ability to create such terrible, useless threads !
    Actually, I think the discussion of "closer" versus "stopper" is not a terrible, useless one. I mean, at this point I wouldn't change a thing about Rivera's career - it's been a thrill for me as a fan to see him and the team has been wildly successful. But I wouldn't rule out that going forward a team might not get more value out of using an elite reliever like Rivera at a crucial moment versus saving him and hoping to hand him a lead in the 9th. It's worth discussing.

  23. #23

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Actually, I think the discussion of "closer" versus "stopper" is not a terrible, useless one. I mean, at this point I wouldn't change a thing about Rivera's career - it's been a thrill for me as a fan to see him and the team has been wildly successful. But I wouldn't rule out that going forward a team might not get more value out of using an elite reliever like Rivera at a crucial moment versus saving him and hoping to hand him a lead in the 9th. It's worth discussing.
    True, it's just that i can't tell whether threads like these are serious or not.

  24. #24
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    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYankeesFan92 View Post
    True, it's just that i can't tell whether threads like these are serious or not.
    That sounds like a personal problem.

  25. #25

    Re: It's too bad the Yankees didn't really know how to use Rivera most effectively !

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    That sounds like a personal problem.

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