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  1. #2726
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees61 View Post
    I called the Stein boys cheap - that was wrong. $189 million is definitely a lot of $ - enough to field a great team. As already mentioned, much of that is in a few bad contracts that hang like a millstone around their necks.

    I don't have the answer, but sticking to a number come hell or high water while the team itself is making money is what angers me as a fan.

    I think investing in scouting is a lot more cost effective than rolling the dice on massive contracts to players approaching their decline. If I were Cashman I'd identify those people and offer them twice their current salary.
    Agree fully. The way to a successful team (long term) is to build a strong farm system, supplement with a key free agent signing or two or trade, not the other way around.

  2. #2727

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    Look, no one in their right mind would suggest that $189M is not a lot of money. No one would dare to suggest that $230M is not enough money to field a competitive team. But to continually dwell on these numbers as a reason to justify the FO's efforts kind of misses a key point that many posters have been trying to make. Much of that money is already on the books for bad contracts that the team can do nothing about. They're spending bundles of money on players who are either hurt and can't play, or can play but are grossly overpaid. What that means is that moving forward, this team lacks any flexibility to add key players to fix glaring problems. That might necessitate adding to the payroll when the true mission here is to take a machete to the payroll once this season comes to a merciful end. In that sense, the critics are right. The team will not be spending. It will be cutting.

    If we were looking at this in a vacuum, you would be right to keep pointing to their current payroll as justification for the FO putting every ounce of resources into fielding a winning club. If all teams started this season at zero, and built a payroll that equates to the actual numbers today, it would be easy to say, "Wow! They're spending like crazy!" But it's not like that. When so much of that money is already committed to players whom the team is stuck with and would rather replace but can't, it affects how this organization is being run moving forward. Realistically, it's being run with it's hands tied at a time when it desperately needs to make moves to get better.

    I don't disagree with the strategy to control their payroll. But this team is going nowhere this year, and is not profiling to be a contender next year, so IMHO the best thing they can do is to find a way to start blowing it up and begin rebuilding sooner rather than later.
    So....should they continue the mistakes of the past...the ones that got them to the position they are in this season...and continue to add on long term big contracts? At some point that has to stop and continuing to kick the can down the road is just delaying the inevitable day of reckoning anyway.

    I could understand this beef more if the Yankees were lagging any other team. But as a fan all I can ask them to do is have the number one payroll in the sport. And they do that every single year. Next year they probably won't, for the first time since 1998, but even then I completely understand the rationale...they are resetting the luxury tax.

    Also, I don't know the Yankees books. I would guess, pretty easily, that they are profitable. But they have sold half of the Yes Network...so their tv revenues (if I understand it correctly) are cut in half. their stadium is unquestionably a cash cow...but how much revenue and then profit do we think they are making? $1 billion a year? no way. $500mm a year? Doubtful.

    Also, baseball is changing. Who exactly was available via free agency this winter? Josh Hamilton...whose contract appears to be heading towards the Tex/ARod category.

    More and more teams have money now...they can tie up their stars long term (see Evan Longoria). I think the wave of the future will be what the Red Sox did...aggressively going after and perhaps overpaying for the Level B free agents...the ones who cost less overall, albeit more expensive on a unit per production basis.

    Are the Yankees guilty of bad contracts? yes...grossly so in ARod's case and definitely so in Tex's case. Are they guilty of letting a budget stop them from trying to put the best team on the field? Strictly speaking, all teams are, but in a relative sense, no.

  3. #2728
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    So....should they continue the mistakes of the past...the ones that got them to the position they are in this season...and continue to add on long term big contracts? At some point that has to stop and continuing to kick the can down the road is just delaying the inevitable day of reckoning anyway.

    I could understand this beef more if the Yankees were lagging any other team. But as a fan all I can ask them to do is have the number one payroll in the sport. And they do that every single year. Next year they probably won't, for the first time since 1998, but even then I completely understand the rationale...they are resetting the luxury tax.

    Also, I don't know the Yankees books. I would guess, pretty easily, that they are profitable. But they have sold half of the Yes Network...so their tv revenues (if I understand it correctly) are cut in half. their stadium is unquestionably a cash cow...but how much revenue and then profit do we think they are making? $1 billion a year? no way. $500mm a year? Doubtful.

    Also, baseball is changing. Who exactly was available via free agency this winter? Josh Hamilton...whose contract appears to be heading towards the Tex/ARod category.

    More and more teams have money now...they can tie up their stars long term (see Evan Longoria). I think the wave of the future will be what the Red Sox did...aggressively going after and perhaps overpaying for the Level B free agents...the ones who cost less overall, albeit more expensive on a unit per production basis.

    Are the Yankees guilty of bad contracts? yes...grossly so in ARod's case and definitely so in Tex's case. Are they guilty of letting a budget stop them from trying to put the best team on the field? Strictly speaking, all teams are, but in a relative sense, no.
    Perfectly said. And while winning is a goal, so is at least making a little profit. It's easy for us to tell them to spend, spend, spend when it isn't our bottom line we are talking about.

  4. #2729
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Yes I did say that above but that is just about all in terms of our roster he didn't have a say in. And when he was given autonomy in 2005 (George Bush's first term) he said his main goal was to replenish and improve the farm system. He's had eight years. How many more years are we supposed to wait?
    If Cashman was given autonomy in 2005, why did Hal Steinbrenner overrule him and sign ARod to that now albatross of a contract?

    I am not absolving Cashman of how this team got to where it is now, but I can't blame him for things that he was against in the first place.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  5. #2730
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Perfectly said. And while winning is a goal, so is at least making a little profit. It's easy for us to tell them to spend, spend, spend when it isn't our bottom line we are talking about.
    I have absolutely no problem with the stated goal of $189M next year - it is a business decision, the same way that signing FA after FA was a business decision in the past.

    People are ripping the Yankees for this business decision, but given the financial impact of this goal, I see nothing wrong with trying this business approach.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  6. #2731
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    Look, no one in their right mind would suggest that $189M is not a lot of money. No one would dare to suggest that $230M is not enough money to field a competitive team. But to continually dwell on these numbers as a reason to justify the FO's efforts kind of misses a key point that many posters have been trying to make. Much of that money is already on the books for bad contracts that the team can do nothing about. They're spending bundles of money on players who are either hurt and can't play, or can play but are grossly overpaid. What that means is that moving forward, this team lacks any flexibility to add key players to fix glaring problems. That might necessitate adding to the payroll when the true mission here is to take a machete to the payroll once this season comes to a merciful end. In that sense, the critics are right. The team will not be spending. It will be cutting.

    If we were looking at this in a vacuum, you would be right to keep pointing to their current payroll as justification for the FO putting every ounce of resources into fielding a winning club. If all teams started this season at zero, and built a payroll that equates to the actual numbers today, it would be easy to say, "Wow! They're spending like crazy!" But it's not like that. When so much of that money is already committed to players whom the team is stuck with and would rather replace but can't, it affects how this organization is being run moving forward. Realistically, it's being run with it's hands tied at a time when it desperately needs to make moves to get better.

    I don't disagree with the strategy to control their payroll. But this team is going nowhere this year, and is not profiling to be a contender next year, so IMHO the best thing they can do is to find a way to start blowing it up and begin rebuilding sooner rather than later.
    Perfectly stated.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  7. #2732
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If Cashman was given autonomy in 2005, why did Hal Steinbrenner overrule him and sign ARod to that now albatross of a contract?

    I am not absolving Cashman of how this team got to where it is now, but I can't blame him for things that he was against in the first place.
    As I have said that was the one exception. I don't see one other signing or anything with th minors that indicate he was precluded from making decisions.

  8. #2733

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If Cashman was given autonomy in 2005, why did Hal Steinbrenner overrule him and sign ARod to that now albatross of a contract?...
    I think I read it was a George Steinbrenner overrule. He wanted the all-time HR record to belong to a Yankee again. Obviously that's not going to happen.

  9. #2734

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If Cashman was given autonomy in 2005, why did Hal Steinbrenner overrule him and sign ARod to that now albatross of a contract?

    I am not absolving Cashman of how this team got to where it is now, but I can't blame him for things that he was against in the first place.
    Things(s) he was against in the first place? How about TWO things since 2005 that I can remember: Arod, an enormous business decision that ownership felt it needed to get involved in, and Rafael Soriano - Cashman seemed to be in la la land or asleep that off-season between his affairs (no pun intended) with his mistress and baseball. I'll even give you the $ amount of Jeter's contract, but we all know he was going nowhere. Let's be honest - Cashman isn't afraid to go public with what moves or signings he might be against. Other than that, this team and the farm system since 2005, good or bad, is all on Cashman. We (everyone) can only play the Arod card so far and long before it starts to sound disingenuous and defensive.

    Regardless of Arod's ridiculous contract (and it was), Cashman wouldn't have a World Series ring to show since his autonomy without Arod and his performance in the 2009 post season. Or, for that matter, he'd have none without the benefit of Steinbrenner money 2009. And where would this team have been without Rafael Soriano last year?

    The state of this team in 2013 and beyond is where Cashman has taken this team as well as the performance of the farm and player development under his watch. It's certainly not my fault...or yours. I'm afraid that what he and this team really need is a better checks and balances system in place- a higher, more efficient form of "Tampa" to protect Cashman from himself. Lets face it, for the most part he and his people really suck at this player evaluation thing. Unfortunately, I distrust Hal's, Levine's or Trost's decisions even more, including finding a new GM if they had to replace Cashman.

    Let's just say the entire organization as it stands doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies. It's going to be a long, ugly couple of years, til we at least we buy some huge impact players, though we now have competition in that arena as well. I'd like to see some of the lower minor guys start to produce for this team during that time, but we've heard that song before as well.


  10. #2735
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    its going to get brutaler. ( I know its not a word but it fits)
    No Rally Monkeys, Towels or hankies
    Just 50,000 fans of the New York Yankees.

  11. #2736

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    this team is horrible. that is all
    Kyle

  12. #2737
    Legend DJ27's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wexy View Post
    its going to get brutaler. ( I know its not a word but it fits)
    Actually "brutaler" is the perfect word for us right now.
    Speak softly but carry a big stick.

  13. #2738

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    It's gonna be funny when they take on a contract out of desperation and miss the playoffs with a payroll near a quarter billion

  14. #2739
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ27 View Post
    Actually "brutaler" is the perfect word for us right now.
    Teh brutalest.

  15. #2740

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Regarding ARod again, in the Yankees' defense, let's not forget that his contract was strictly a business decision that even included Goldman Sachs' involvement. It was well beyond Cashman's individual scope, as relatively autonomous as he was and has been since.

    At the time ARod was putting up numbers that most of us hadn't seen a Yankee put up in our lifetime and he seemed a shoo-in to break the homer record. There wasn't a hint of steroid usage, injury or immediate decline. The Yankee financial people concluded that in his fading years, he'd be a money maker for them as he chased the record. Wasn't my money and the Steinbrenners' "limited budget" was more of a joke than real. Yes, they competed against themselves, and yes, it turned out to be a nightmare. But, as some defenders might say, "Who could have predicted the events that happened after the 2009 season?"

    On that note, given Arod's performance at the time he signed the contract, why isn't anyone complaining about CC's new contract? Why are we paying the man $25MM for 5 years, plus an option, for his past performance? Is that any less foolish than Arod's contract, when he was still on top of his game and ultimately chasing an historic record?

    And, most importantly, how can I change my freakin' handle?


  16. #2741
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    And, most importantly, how can I change my freakin' handle?
    Maybe if he actually has to serve that 100 game suspension some kind Mod will take mercy on you. I think similar things have happened once or twice in NYYFans history.

    I suppose I should have changed my av ages ago.

  17. #2742
    Legend DJ27's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Regarding ARod again, in the Yankees' defense, let's not forget that his contract was strictly a business decision that even included Goldman Sachs' involvement. It was well beyond Cashman's individual scope, as relatively autonomous as he was and has been since.

    At the time ARod was putting up numbers that most of us hadn't seen a Yankee put up in our lifetime and he seemed a shoo-in to break the homer record. There wasn't a hint of steroid usage, injury or immediate decline. In his fading years, the Yankee financial people concluded that he'd be a money maker for them as he chased the record. Yes, they competed against themselves, and yes, it turned out to be a nightmare. But as some defenders might say, "Who would have predicted the events that happened after 2010?"

    On that note, given Arod's performance at the time he signed the contract, why isn't anyone complaining about CC's new contract? Why are we paying the man $25MM for 5 years, plus an option, for his past performance? Is that any less foolish than Arod's contract, when he was still on top of his game and ultimately chasing an historic record?

    And, most importantly, how can I change my freakin' handle?
    Funny, great post.

    Very honest and on track.
    Speak softly but carry a big stick.

  18. #2743
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    And, most importantly, how can I change my freakin' handle?
    I think that there should be something implemented on the forum for unusual circumstances to allow that. Yours is one of them.
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

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  19. #2744

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Agree fully. The way to a successful team (long term) is to build a strong farm system, supplement with a key free agent signing or two or trade, not the other way around.
    This is so clear to me personally that I don't understand how not everybody can see it.

    Build the best farm system in MLB, and, you will have a powerhouse.

  20. #2745

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    Maybe if he actually has to serve that 100 game suspension some kind Mod will take mercy on you. I think similar things have happened once or twice in NYYFans history.

    I suppose I should have changed my av ages ago.
    Then I guess that we should all root for that suspension on my behalf!

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ27 View Post
    Funny, great post.

    Very honest and on track.
    Thanks, man...I appreciate that.


  21. #2746

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I think that there should be something implemented on the forum for unusual circumstances to allow that. Yours is one of them.
    I agree! Kind of like allowing "AaronHernandezRulez" the opportunity to change his handle on a Pats forum.

    Well, maybe not quite as severe....


  22. #2747

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Cashman has managed to keep the farm in the top half of farm rankings for a very long time, often in top 10.

    That said, I've said a few times that I think Cashman's overall focus on high risk/high potential prospects, especially pitching prospects, is misguided. By focusing on high risk prospects, we are more likely to end up without much depth in terms of solid MLB ready players. And no matter how hard anyone tries to identify stars, once you get past the top maybe 10 picks, it's all a craps shoot.

    We should realign our priorities and just focus on value and give more priority to more developed college type players that can contribute to depth (and trade value, even if we don't need them) than we have in recent memory.

  23. #2748

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    A good part of the reasoning behind those rankings included players with unfulfilled promise such as "The Killer B's," Hughes, Joba, etc. Some of it is smoke and mirrors. Some farmhands were parts of questionable trades, releases and some poor decisions under Cashman's watch.

    There's a problem within this organization's player development and player evaluation that transcends, goes well beyond the youngsters' performances, many of whom are flat out over-hyped. Unfortunately, the rest of the league has caught up, many surpassing us, and they don't seem to be fooled anymore or buy into it. And, let's face it, some of the Yankees' draft picks are head shakers to say the least.

    Besides, what good are the rankings if few actually make it to the bigs and/or continually disappoint?


  24. #2749
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Cashman has managed to keep the farm in the top half of farm rankings for a very long time, often in top 10.

    That said, I've said a few times that I think Cashman's overall focus on high risk/high potential prospects, especially pitching prospects, is misguided. By focusing on high risk prospects, we are more likely to end up without much depth in terms of solid MLB ready players. And no matter how hard anyone tries to identify stars, once you get past the top maybe 10 picks, it's all a craps shoot.

    We should realign our priorities and just focus on value and give more priority to more developed college type players that can contribute to depth (and trade value, even if we don't need them) than we have in recent memory.
    And how many of those players that somehow got us in the top 10 have panned out? Look around the league, many other teams have multiple players coming up and producing. And many excelling.

  25. #2750

    Re: 2013 New York Yankees Season Long Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    And how many of those players that somehow got us in the top 10 have panned out? Look around the league, many other teams have multiple players coming up and producing. And many excelling.
    Great points.


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