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  1. #101

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    its pretty easy. efficiency by a rules book is not the same as efficiency in real life. How much are you willing to give up for every home run? Whats the ideal mix? Thats what this guy is trying to get at.

  2. #102
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    A homerun is not the most efficient method of run scoring because you cannot hit a HR every at bat, and even if you had all your players gunning for HRs every AB they would suffer most likely in every other category, drastically reducing 'efficiency' which as theDurk is trying to explain is the mix of every kind of way to get on base or move a runner that can happen in a plate appearance. By the rules of the game, the HR is the best scoring method, but teams cannot pick and choose what they use in a given PA.

    If theDurk was building he a team, he may not go for all sluggers, but try to find the most efficient mix of talent. By way of an example I think: You could have a catcher who hits 15 HRs, or a catcher who hits 5 HRs but gets on base .030 more. Perhaps the latter is technically more efficient.
    This conversation is all over the place at this point. We could go round and round. If singles hitters could single in only at bats where the slugger is going to hit a HR behind them, they'd do that too. I said a while back that hitting more HR in and of itself doesn't make someone a better hitter. I gave examples - Posey is far better offensively than Pierzynski, Trout than Granderson, etc in spite of the HR differences.

    I know this isn't direct causation, and are influenced by more than just HR and just overall offensive quality, but last year:
    • The top four offenses in the AL had the first, third and fourth most HR.
    • The second and third lowest run scoring offenses had league average-ish or better BA and OBP and the fewest HR in the league.

    I simply cannot get my head around the comment that a HR is not an efficient method of scoring.

  3. #103

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    There are too many exaggerations on both sides of this argument. However, the sarcastic "home runs are bad!" side is the most obnoxious. Nobody is saying that hitting a home run is a bad thing, and that is obvious but why waste a good opportunity to blow things out of proportion?

  4. #104
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    There are too many exaggerations on both sides of this argument. However, the sarcastic "home runs are bad!" side is the most obnoxious. Nobody is saying that hitting a home run is a bad thing, and that is obvious but why waste a good opportunity to blow things out of proportion?
    Who sarcastically said home runs are bad? I don't see that anywhere is this discussion. Help me out with who you see blowing this out of proportion.

  5. #105

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Who sarcastically said home runs are bad? I don't see that anywhere is this discussion. Help me out with who you see blowing this out of proportion.
    Do you really not recall the sarcastic "too many home runs" posts throughout last season whenever a Yankee hit one?

    I said "this argument", which has been going on since last year, not this discussion in this particular thread.

  6. #106
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    The fact is that this should not even be an argument. That it is, only serves to waste bandwidth.

  7. #107
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Do you really not recall the sarcastic "too many home runs" posts throughout last season whenever a Yankee hit one?

    I said "this argument", which has been going on since last year, not this discussion in this particular thread.
    Actually, it got to that point in any number of threads. It became impossible to have an open discussion about this.
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  8. #108
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    A homerun is not the most efficient method of run scoring because you cannot hit a HR every at bat, and even if you had all your players gunning for HRs every AB they would suffer most likely in every other category, drastically reducing 'efficiency' which as theDurk is trying to explain is the mix of every kind of way to get on base or move a runner that can happen in a plate appearance. By the rules of the game, the HR is the best scoring method, but teams cannot pick and choose what they use in a given PA.

    If theDurk was building he a team, he may not go for all sluggers, but try to find the most efficient mix of talent. By way of an example I think: You could have a catcher who hits 15 HRs, or a catcher who hits 5 HRs but gets on base .030 more. Perhaps the latter is technically more efficient.

    If we were all picking a lineup, we'd pick the players with the best wRC+/wOBA (weighted towards the first or second depending on health, etc). They do the most things that provide the most value. More is better, by definition. Also, the best outcome of a PA is a HR, by definition

    It's not a coincidence that those best players tend to hit a lot of HRs, more than the Yankees hit last year (probably over a lot less PAs, since the Yankees had bench guys hit HRs). They also do a lot of other things, most importantly not making outs, as expected from them providing the most total value

    I think everybody is arguing on the same side, as is probably usual.


    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk
    I didn't realize I was required to stick to what Jace calls the 'original discussion'
    I don't think I used the words 'original' or 'discussion', so those literal quotes aren't actually literal, haha. Its definitely good that you have a background in increasing process efficiency, but it doesnt mean others of us dont have relevant experience as well

  9. #109

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    I think we'll all be more efficient fans when this conversation ends.
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  10. #110
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Gardner has looked really good so far this spring.

  11. #111
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Heathcott starting in CF today.
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  12. #112
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoVaughnEatsAlot View Post
    Gardner has looked really good so far this spring.
    Yep, said earlier I think he'll have a big year (and they'll need him to). Going on nothing other than gut and confidence in this guy, I'm projecting (hoping?) for >.375 OBP and >60 SB, and gold glove CF defense.

  13. #113
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I think we'll all be more efficient fans when this conversation ends.
    NerfBall55 wins the thread!

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  14. #114

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Yep, said earlier I think he'll have a big year (and they'll need him to). Going on nothing other than gut and confidence in this guy, I'm projecting (hoping?) for >.375 OBP and >60 SB, and gold glove CF defense.
    Wow. if he does those three things and gets 40 XBH, he's probably the team MVP, particularly given how the team is constructued this year.

    I love the confidence and i realize it's not implausible given past performance, but have to admit I'm not as bullish...

    I see .340-something obp, 35 to 40 SB and gold glove defense. I'm a little concerned about his SB totals...they tend to be more difficult to achieve as they move downstream from luxury item to required household neccessity, if that makes sense....

    As with you, though, this is about gut feel more than any meaningful analysis...

  15. #115
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    I don't think I used the words 'original' or 'discussion', so those literal quotes aren't actually literal, haha. Its definitely good that you have a background in increasing process efficiency, but it doesnt mean others of us dont have relevant experience as well
    Sorry, it was False1 that used that phrase. My mistake. I have desisted from further discussion of this subject--this horse is declared dead. I just wish you would use a different word. Carry on with your usual more productive debates, gentlemen.
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  16. #116
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    anyone catch slade colliding/rocketing headfirst into musterlier in the OF? dude is pedal to the metal at all times
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flymick24 View Post
    anyone catch slade colliding/rocketing headfirst into musterlier in the OF? dude is pedal to the metal at all times
    He should stop before he hurts himself. I like it when players hustle, but after a while there's diminishing returns on scrappiness/grittiness.

  18. #118
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    He should stop before he hurts himself. I like it when players hustle, but after a while there's diminishing returns on scrappiness/grittiness.
    True, but if that's his nature I wouldn't ask him to change. He's trying to make an impression..and the best way to do that is to play with max effort. The Yankees could use more guys like that. As he matures he'll learn (hopefully) that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
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  19. #119

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Sanchez looks better behind the plate than Montero ever did
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  20. #120
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    At 1-7, the Yankees are last in both the AL and the GL spring training standings.

    We are doomed, DOOMED, I tell you.

    It's time for the bridge.
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  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    Sanchez looks better behind the plate than Montero ever did
    That speaks volumes because Sanchez is supposedly still a work in progress back there.

  22. #122
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flymick24 View Post
    anyone catch slade colliding/rocketing headfirst into musterlier in the OF? dude is pedal to the metal at all times

  23. #123

    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    That speaks volumes because Sanchez is supposedly still a work in progress back there.
    Montero always just looked like he was too big for the position- it was hard for him to get low and offer a good target. His butt was always too high up in the air

    Sanchez is pretty big too, but he manages to keep his center of gravity low- making a good target and allowing him to move much better

    To my untrained eye seems like he'll have no problem sticking @ catcher and will be better than Posada. Add in the offensive potential and he's gonna be a very valuable player if all goes well
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  24. #124
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    http://www.examiner.com/article/with...seball-classic

    Melky Mesa will be with the Yankees all spring after all. Smart move for him?

  25. #125
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    Re: 2013 Yankees' Spring Training Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Wow. if he does those three things and gets 40 XBH, he's probably the team MVP, particularly given how the team is constructued this year.

    I love the confidence and i realize it's not implausible given past performance, but have to admit I'm not as bullish...

    I see .340-something obp, 35 to 40 SB and gold glove defense. I'm a little concerned about his SB totals...they tend to be more difficult to achieve as they move downstream from luxury item to required household neccessity, if that makes sense....

    As with you, though, this is about gut feel more than any meaningful analysis...
    One of the things I love about BaseballReference.com is their 162 game average - it extrapolates a player's career numbers over a 162 game season.

    Here are Gardner's

    .266/.355/.368/.723 slash line with 47 SB (10 CS) and 88 runs with only 5 GIDP.

    If we can get those numbers from Gardner, I would be ecstatic and, personally, I think if he is put into the lineup everyday in a regular position, his numbers can be even better. In 2010, when he played 150 games (569 PA), his slash line was .277..383..379/.762 with 97 runs scored and 47 SB.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

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