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  1. #301
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I don't think the two are separable.
    Punish one, punish both.
    I think it's actually handled correctly.

    Pete's accomplishments are in the HOF, but Pete is not a member.
    Not to argue, but why not?
    Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  2. #302
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    is creatine a banned substance?
    Brady Anderson used creatine, had that one 50 HR year and never came close to it again. I'm not saying that creatine alone was the reason, but he started to break down physically after that season.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  3. #303
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by 35Knucklecurve View Post
    Brady Anderson used creatine, had that one 50 HR year and never came close to it again. I'm not saying that creatine alone was the reason, but he started to break down physically after that season.
    Are you sure that's all he used?
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  4. #304
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Not to argue, but why not?
    Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.
    It's not arguing, it's discussing...

    The reason being that Pete Rose is only one human being.
    If he's standing in front of you, is it the player or the manager standing there?
    So, leaving him out of the membership is the only way to accomplish the banishment.
    However, his accomplishments are inside.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  5. #305
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Greenies never made anyone stronger or faster. Many players took greenies between the 60's and 80's to fight the rigours of travel and stay alert.

    Furthermore, as per the article you quoted, they weren't even a banned substance at the time that Rose used them.

    Comparing greenies to steroids and GH is like comparing aspirin to morphine. Huge difference.

    I stand behind my statement - if cheats like Bonds and Clemens ever set foot in Cooperstown, then Rose should get in as well.
    Dismissing amphetamines as PEDs is a strange approach. No, they don't build muscle mass, but they are surely performance enhancers. Fighting the rigors of travel and staying alert are hardly trivial over the course of a season, not to mention improving concentration and focus and reaction time. They are powerful performance enhancers, and if you don't think they're as effective as steroids, so what? They certainly aren't like aspirin to morphine. They're also highly addictive and dangerous.

    As for its not being banned when Rose was a player - were any substances specifically banned then? Amphetamines were illegal without a prescription beginning in 1965, and a Schedule II controlled substance beginning in 1971.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  6. #306

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Are you sure that's all he used?
    I'm not sure about any of them. That's the problem

    Oh, and going back upthread to McGwire and the creatine displayed prominently in his locker - I remember at the time some sportswriter were saying McGwire was using the very public display of the creatine as a red herring. "Hey, it's the creatine, not steroids".

  7. #307

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    Mattingly 13%, Bernie Williams 3%. But there is never an anti Yankees thing about the HOF voting. Not saying either should make the Hall but I bet if they played for other teams with the same stats their totals would be much higher.
    More likely that the opposite is true. Neither belongs in the Hall; I wouldn't have voted for either, so I can't blame anyone else for not voting for them. Bernie and Mattingly are literally my two favorite players ever, by the way.

  8. #308
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Not to argue, but why not?
    Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.
    Evidence against shoeless joe is way more flimsy than against pete.

    pete signed a document agreeing to the lifetime ban. And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  9. #309

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Jackson threw the World Series so hard that he hit .375 without committing a single error. There were a few players railroaded in that "investigation."

    Saying that amphetamines shouldn't bar you from the Hall of Fame but steroids should is ridiculous rationalization meant to demonize modern players while protecting "cheaters" like Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. If Barry Bonds is dirty, so is Hank Aaron. Both used illegal drugs that were tacitly condoned by the league in order to improve performance. Any argument otherwise is a smokescreen.

  10. #310
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Jackson threw the World Series so hard that he hit .375 without committing a single error. There were a few players railroaded in that "investigation."
    I have enough confidence in Jackson's ability to think that he could contribute to throwing a short series while still compiling those stats. Since he wasn't doing it alone, there are plenty of things he could do: making an out in a key situation, missing a hit-and-run, throwing behind a runner, playing a ball on the bounce or letting it get past him, and so on.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  11. #311

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.
    Not only that, but even if Rose only bet on the Reds to win, if he didn't bet on every game, he could have manipulated the lineup, bullpen, etc. to increase the chances of winning the games on which he had money riding to the detriment of the games on which he didn't have a bet.
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh

  12. #312
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.
    All the fat guys watch me & say to their wives, 'See, there's a fat guy doing okay. Bring me another beer. Mickey Lolich

  13. #313

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Messerwhitescooter View Post
    Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.
    The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.

  14. #314

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Messerwhitescooter View Post
    Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.
    Yes, far off ... he only got 13% of the votes but needed 75%
    Yes, you're biased ... not a bad thing
    No, the pool of voters is too big for there to be widespread anti-Yankee sentiment
    No, he's not HOF material. He was good enough perhaps, but not good enough long enough
    I'll ignore one of your smart questions to even things out

    edit: What RenoHightower said
    “Everything looks nicer when you win. The girls are prettier, the cigars taste better. The trees are greener.”—Billy Martin

  15. #315
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.
    Yeah he an Bernie Williams are similar cases. Both had a hall worthy peak that was a bit too short get them in on peak alone and the rest of their careers just weren't good enough to carry them in.

    Both belong in the hall of very good and I wouldn't complain if the Yanks retired either of their numbers or gave them a plaque in monument park, but neither had a good enough career to be in the hall.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  16. #316
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I have enough confidence in Jackson's ability to think that he could contribute to throwing a short series while still compiling those stats. Since he wasn't doing it alone, there are plenty of things he could do: making an out in a key situation, missing a hit-and-run, throwing behind a runner, playing a ball on the bounce or letting it get past him, and so on.
    In Jackson's case looking at the scoring of the games and eye witness accounts no one has ever been able to find anything that Jackson did in that series that was the least bit shady. He even hit the only HR by any player in that series. The reason he was banned was more because he knew what was going on and did not say anything about it. That was the reason Buck Weaver was also one of the banned players. I think Jackson should be in the HOF but not Rose. As manger there are just too many ways he could have determined the outcome of a game he bet on.

  17. #317

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Messerwhitescooter View Post
    Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.
    I don't think there's any bias - he simply didn't have the longevity.

  18. #318
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Dismissing amphetamines as PEDs is a strange approach. No, they don't build muscle mass, but they are surely performance enhancers. Fighting the rigors of travel and staying alert are hardly trivial over the course of a season, not to mention improving concentration and focus and reaction time. They are powerful performance enhancers, and if you don't think they're as effective as steroids, so what? They certainly aren't like aspirin to morphine. They're also highly addictive and dangerous.

    As for its not being banned when Rose was a player - were any substances specifically banned then? Amphetamines were illegal without a prescription beginning in 1965, and a Schedule II controlled substance beginning in 1971.
    Replace "greenies" with "4 espressos" and you're basically talking about the same exact impact on performance. Should we also ban all caffeine junkies from the HOF?

    What I find strange is painting stimulants with the same brush as steroids and GH.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  19. #319
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Evidence against shoeless joe is way more flimsy than against pete.

    pete signed a document agreeing to the lifetime ban. And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.
    Perhaps you should reread my post because it's clear you didn't grasp what I said:

    Pete Rose certainly deserves to be banned from any involvement with MLB from the time he was caught gambling as a manager, but to retroactively ignore his accomplishments as a player prior to committing any transgressions is wrong. Honor the player, and enshrine the all-time hits leader in Cooperstown, but ban Pete Rose from MLB for what he did after his playing career is all I'm saying.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  20. #320

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.
    Kirby Puckett is a pretty damn good comp for Don Mattingly. But Puckett has two rings.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  21. #321
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Replace "greenies" with "4 espressos" and you're basically talking about the same exact impact on performance. Should we also ban all caffeine junkies from the HOF?

    What I find strange is painting stimulants with the same brush as steroids and GH.
    Having used both espresso and amphetamines, I can tell you that that's simply not so.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  22. #322
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    I'm not sure about any of them. That's the problem

    Oh, and going back upthread to McGwire and the creatine displayed prominently in his locker - I remember at the time some sportswriter were saying McGwire was using the very public display of the creatine as a red herring. "Hey, it's the creatine, not steroids".
    FWIW it was andro, not creatine that was found in McGwire's locker.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  23. #323

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    FWIW it was andro, not creatine that was found in McGwire's locker.
    http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...=1#post7666912
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh

  24. #324
    Alright, alright, alright... Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Kirby Puckett is a pretty damn good comp for Don Mattingly. But Puckett has two rings.
    And Ted Williams and Ernie Banks have none. Should we keep them out too? Baseball is a team sport. One person cannot carry you to a title over 162 games plus the post-season.

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  25. #325
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    And Ted Williams and Ernie Banks have none. Should we keep them out too? Baseball is a team sport. One person cannot carry you to a title over 162 games plus the post-season.
    Neither one of those players are as as good as Ted Williams' jockstrap, Ted Williams is an all-time great, it doesn't matter. Ernie Banks was obviously a great player as well, and despite having similar overall production (not in terms of years) as Mattingly and Puckett, he had a longer, more productive career than both, not to mention he has the "counting stats"; if Mattingly had 500 HR, he'd be in ring or not.

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