11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

[Zimmers' Helmet]

I don't think the two are separable.
Punish one, punish both.
I think it's actually handled correctly.

Pete's accomplishments are in the HOF, but Pete is not a member.

Not to argue, but why not?
Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.

[35Knucklecurve]

is creatine a banned substance?

Brady Anderson used creatine, had that one 50 HR year and never came close to it again. I'm not saying that creatine alone was the reason, but he started to break down physically after that season.

[NelsonMuntz]

Brady Anderson used creatine, had that one 50 HR year and never came close to it again. I'm not saying that creatine alone was the reason, but he started to break down physically after that season.

Are you sure that's all he used?

[effdamets]

Not to argue, but why not?
Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.

It's not arguing, it's discussing...

The reason being that Pete Rose is only one human being.
If he's standing in front of you, is it the player or the manager standing there?
So, leaving him out of the membership is the only way to accomplish the banishment.
However, his accomplishments are inside.

[JL25and3]

Greenies never made anyone stronger or faster. Many players took greenies between the 60's and 80's to fight the rigours of travel and stay alert.

Furthermore, as per the article you quoted, they weren't even a banned substance at the time that Rose used them.

Comparing greenies to steroids and GH is like comparing aspirin to morphine. Huge difference.

I stand behind my statement - if cheats like Bonds and Clemens ever set foot in Cooperstown, then Rose should get in as well.

Dismissing amphetamines as PEDs is a strange approach. No, they don't build muscle mass, but they are surely performance enhancers. Fighting the rigors of travel and staying alert are hardly trivial over the course of a season, not to mention improving concentration and focus and reaction time. They are powerful performance enhancers, and if you don't think they're as effective as steroids, so what? They certainly aren't like aspirin to morphine. They're also highly addictive and dangerous.

As for its not being banned when Rose was a player - were any substances specifically banned then? Amphetamines were illegal without a prescription beginning in 1965, and a Schedule II controlled substance beginning in 1971.

[fredgmuggs]

Are you sure that's all he used?

I'm not sure about any of them. That's the problem

Oh, and going back upthread to McGwire and the creatine displayed prominently in his locker - I remember at the time some sportswriter were saying McGwire was using the very public display of the creatine as a red herring. "Hey, it's the creatine, not steroids".

[RenoHightower]

Mattingly 13%, Bernie Williams 3%. But there is never an anti Yankees thing about the HOF voting. Not saying either should make the Hall but I bet if they played for other teams with the same stats their totals would be much higher.

More likely that the opposite is true. Neither belongs in the Hall; I wouldn't have voted for either, so I can't blame anyone else for not voting for them. Bernie and Mattingly are literally my two favorite players ever, by the way.

[Yankee Tripper]

Not to argue, but why not?
Many have made the comparison to Shoeless Joe Jackson, but the difference is that Shoeless Joe was part of a group of active players that threw a World Series. Rose the player never committed any such transgressions. If he had, then I'd completely agree with you.

Evidence against shoeless joe is way more flimsy than against pete.

pete signed a document agreeing to the lifetime ban. And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.

[RenoHightower]

Jackson threw the World Series so hard that he hit .375 without committing a single error. There were a few players railroaded in that "investigation."

Saying that amphetamines shouldn't bar you from the Hall of Fame but steroids should is ridiculous rationalization meant to demonize modern players while protecting "cheaters" like Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. If Barry Bonds is dirty, so is Hank Aaron. Both used illegal drugs that were tacitly condoned by the league in order to improve performance. Any argument otherwise is a smokescreen.

[JL25and3]

Jackson threw the World Series so hard that he hit .375 without committing a single error. There were a few players railroaded in that "investigation."

I have enough confidence in Jackson's ability to think that he could contribute to throwing a short series while still compiling those stats. Since he wasn't doing it alone, there are plenty of things he could do: making an out in a key situation, missing a hit-and-run, throwing behind a runner, playing a ball on the bounce or letting it get past him, and so on.

[Ram Man]

And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.

Not only that, but even if Rose only bet on the Reds to win, if he didn't bet on every game, he could have manipulated the lineup, bullpen, etc. to increase the chances of winning the games on which he had money riding to the detriment of the games on which he didn't have a bet.

[Messerwhitescooter]

Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.

[RenoHightower]

Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.

The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.

[Gusto]

Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.

Yes, far off ... he only got 13% of the votes but needed 75%
Yes, you're biased ... not a bad thing
No, the pool of voters is too big for there to be widespread anti-Yankee sentiment
No, he's not HOF material. He was good enough perhaps, but not good enough long enough
I'll ignore one of your smart questions to even things out

edit: What RenoHightower said

[Yankee Tripper]

The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.

Yeah he an Bernie Williams are similar cases. Both had a hall worthy peak that was a bit too short get them in on peak alone and the rest of their careers just weren't good enough to carry them in.

Both belong in the hall of very good and I wouldn't complain if the Yanks retired either of their numbers or gave them a plaque in monument park, but neither had a good enough career to be in the hall.

[ymike673]

I have enough confidence in Jackson's ability to think that he could contribute to throwing a short series while still compiling those stats. Since he wasn't doing it alone, there are plenty of things he could do: making an out in a key situation, missing a hit-and-run, throwing behind a runner, playing a ball on the bounce or letting it get past him, and so on.

In Jackson's case looking at the scoring of the games and eye witness accounts no one has ever been able to find anything that Jackson did in that series that was the least bit shady. He even hit the only HR by any player in that series. The reason he was banned was more because he knew what was going on and did not say anything about it. That was the reason Buck Weaver was also one of the banned players. I think Jackson should be in the HOF but not Rose. As manger there are just too many ways he could have determined the outcome of a game he bet on.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Didn't read this whole thread, so please don't slam me, but was Don Mattingly so far off from being a HOFer? Am I just biased because I am a Yankee fan, or is the voting committee anti-Yankee, or was he legitimately not a Hall of famer? I am not up enough on what it takes to be a Hall of Famer, so if this seems like a dumb question, just ignore it.

I don't think there's any bias - he simply didn't have the longevity.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Dismissing amphetamines as PEDs is a strange approach. No, they don't build muscle mass, but they are surely performance enhancers. Fighting the rigors of travel and staying alert are hardly trivial over the course of a season, not to mention improving concentration and focus and reaction time. They are powerful performance enhancers, and if you don't think they're as effective as steroids, so what? They certainly aren't like aspirin to morphine. They're also highly addictive and dangerous.

As for its not being banned when Rose was a player - were any substances specifically banned then? Amphetamines were illegal without a prescription beginning in 1965, and a Schedule II controlled substance beginning in 1971.

Replace "greenies" with "4 espressos" and you're basically talking about the same exact impact on performance. Should we also ban all caffeine junkies from the HOF?

What I find strange is painting stimulants with the same brush as steroids and GH.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Evidence against shoeless joe is way more flimsy than against pete.

pete signed a document agreeing to the lifetime ban. And you have no idea if his betting on the reds while manger involved him throwing games or not which would be way worse then roiding up to try and help your team.

Perhaps you should reread my post because it's clear you didn't grasp what I said:

Pete Rose certainly deserves to be banned from any involvement with MLB from the time he was caught gambling as a manager, but to retroactively ignore his accomplishments as a player prior to committing any transgressions is wrong. Honor the player, and enshrine the all-time hits leader in Cooperstown, but ban Pete Rose from MLB for what he did after his playing career is all I'm saying.

[sweet_lou_14]

The voting committee isn't anti-Yankee. Mattingly isn't a hall of famer. He had a sensational 6-year run as one of the best players in baseball, but outside of that, he was basically an average player.

Kirby Puckett is a pretty damn good comp for Don Mattingly. But Puckett has two rings.

[JL25and3]

Replace "greenies" with "4 espressos" and you're basically talking about the same exact impact on performance. Should we also ban all caffeine junkies from the HOF?

What I find strange is painting stimulants with the same brush as steroids and GH.

Having used both espresso and amphetamines, I can tell you that that's simply not so.

[NelsonMuntz]

I'm not sure about any of them. That's the problem

Oh, and going back upthread to McGwire and the creatine displayed prominently in his locker - I remember at the time some sportswriter were saying McGwire was using the very public display of the creatine as a red herring. "Hey, it's the creatine, not steroids".

FWIW it was andro, not creatine that was found in McGwire's locker.

[Ram Man]

FWIW it was andro, not creatine that was found in McGwire's locker.

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread...=1#post7666912

[Big_E]

Kirby Puckett is a pretty damn good comp for Don Mattingly. But Puckett has two rings.

And Ted Williams and Ernie Banks have none. Should we keep them out too? Baseball is a team sport. One person cannot carry you to a title over 162 games plus the post-season.

[MoVaughnEatsAlot]

And Ted Williams and Ernie Banks have none. Should we keep them out too? Baseball is a team sport. One person cannot carry you to a title over 162 games plus the post-season.

Neither one of those players are as as good as Ted Williams' jockstrap, Ted Williams is an all-time great, it doesn't matter. Ernie Banks was obviously a great player as well, and despite having similar overall production (not in terms of years) as Mattingly and Puckett, he had a longer, more productive career than both, not to mention he has the "counting stats"; if Mattingly had 500 HR, he'd be in ring or not.