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  1. #26
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I say this all the time.

    Who cares?

    The Hall of Fame has become a joke anyway.
    This is one of the reasons why it needs to be fixed. To change your mind.

    I still love it but it's flawed.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  2. #27

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    We should start our own Hall of Fame. No dumbness allowed. Tim Raines is already in.

  3. #28
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    I really can't understand why Raines isn't in yet. Unless it's that whole cocaine thing.

  4. #29
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    It seems possible it may highlight the shortcomings of the current voting system. At least that's how I took it. It is very flawed and I'd like to see it change.
    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I say this all the time.

    Who cares?

    The Hall of Fame has become a joke anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by 35Knucklecurve View Post
    Some writers have also admitted (anonymously) that if a player has given them a hard time in the past, he will not vote for him right away or maybe not even at all, which IMO, is inexcusable. They've got enough headaches with the steroid era without adding on petty crap. It's time to find a different group to serve on the HOF committee. I don't know if the answer is a mix of the Veteran's committee and former players or MLB analysts and players or a lotto drawing, but the BBWAA has shown me they are not worthy or capable of making unbiased, informed and intelligent decisions. The current "ritual" that some of them have of not ever voting a player in on his first year of eligility is ludicrous at best.
    I don't agree that the Hall of Fame is a joke. Sure, there are some changes I'd make, but the fact that Jim Rice is in the Hall of Fame and Tim Raines isn't hardly makes it a "joke."

    And as I've said many times, the biggest mistakes haven't been made by the BBWAA. They really do a pretty good job. The Veterans Committee (in various forms) have made the serious screwups.

    I don't see what the big problem is with the voting system, aside from ZOMG!!!!1! JIM RICE!!!
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  5. #30
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I don't agree that the Hall of Fame is a joke. Sure, there are some changes I'd make, but the fact that Jim Rice is in the Hall of Fame and Tim Raines isn't hardly makes it a "joke."

    And as I've said many times, the biggest mistakes haven't been made by the BBWAA. They really do a pretty good job. The Veterans Committee (in various forms) have made the serious screwups.

    I don't see what the big problem is with the voting system, aside from ZOMG!!!!1! JIM RICE!!!
    I have a problem with Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Bill Mazeroski and the likes of those....
    It's stupid.
    Jim Rice just followed the stupid suit set forth....

    I don't even pay attention anymore. I like to call the the Hall of Good.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  6. #31
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I have a problem with Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Bill Mazeroski and the likes of those....
    It's stupid.
    Jim Rice just followed the stupid suit set forth....

    I don't even pay attention anymore. I like to call the the Hall of Good.
    Mazeroski was a Veterans Committee choice.

    Sutton and Niekro weren't very good choices. But the borderline calls don't disturb me that deeply. Just because they're in the Hall of Fame doesn't mean anyone's confusing them with Walter Johnson.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  7. #32
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    I never thought the HoF was too terrible, sure it's not perfect, but overall I really don't think it's the horrible piece of crap some people think it is. But that's just one man's opinion.

  8. #33
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by 35Knucklecurve View Post
    The current "ritual" that some of them have of not ever voting a player in on his first year of eligility is ludicrous at best.
    This isn't a recent development After the very first HOF election in 1936, no one was chosen on the first ballot until Bob Feller in 1962 (they didn't vote every year). Joe DiMaggio and Yogi Berra weren't elected first time around. Neither were Rogers Hornsby or Lefty Grove or Mel Ott or a lot of other people. So they've actually gotten a lot better at it over the years; now they do elect people on the first ballot, even if it's not unanimous.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  9. #34
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    I think the voting process is a joke. It appears popularity weighs too heavily in the vote. And by now, the way baseball has been broken down so scientifically there are so many tools to use to decide if a player is worthy. With the steroid issue I expect bullsh!t for the next few years because so many are outright angry at the users and evena hint of use disqualifies them from getting in. I think that is absurd. The era is a mess, we know that. But to just say an entire generation is unworthy is wrong. The old school thinkers need to wise up and try to use some rational reasoning instead of their personal vendetta against so-called cheaters. Why is there a question about Piazza? He never failed a test, was never connected to PEDs yet people are saying no because there is suspicion. How is this right?

    I agree that the Bonds/Clemens/Sosa issue is very tough. Bonds and Clemens were both HOFers before any PED use was mentioned. They deserve to be in just based on that. Sosa is a different animal, it would appear PEDs made him the player he was.

    But unless a player is guilty of using, failed a test, mentioned in the Mitchell report, or there is some sort of evidence behind denying their entry, it is ridiculous to deny them. It makes me angry that out of all the great players of my generation, Maddux appears to be the only one worthy to these guys. Yet he was accused of doctoring the ball. But he's a nice guy, so it's okay? Bonds, probably the second or third best player of all time is a douche, so he's an automatic no?

    Opinions are bad. Stats are good. We have the tools now, let's use them.

    Also, Bill James should have a vote.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  10. #35
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I say this all the time.

    Who cares?

    The Hall of Fame has become a joke anyway.
    Agreed, it's a rather silly institution. They're openly biased against steroid users, and also how they treat Pete Rose is ridiculous.

  11. #36
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Agreed, it's a rather silly institution. They're openly biased against steroid users, and also how they treat Pete Rose is ridiculous.
    Well I think it would be great if we could make it not a joke, and that's my entire point. The HOF should be awesome, I still think it is, but for all those who think it's a joke there is a reason, which is valid, and it can and should be fixed.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  12. #37

    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    and also how they treat Pete Rose is ridiculous.
    1. Pete Rose knew from Day One in organized baseball that gambling was prohibited. 2. Rose gambled anyway. 3. He agreed to a permanent ban. 4. The Hall's rules state that they don't consider any player that has been permanently banned from baseball.

    How is the Hall of Fame's treatment of Rose ridiculous?
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh

  13. #38
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Man View Post
    1. Pete Rose knew from Day One in organized baseball that gambling was prohibited. 2. Rose gambled anyway. 3. He agreed to a permanent ban. 4. The Hall's rules state that they don't consider any player that has been permanently banned from baseball.

    How is the Hall of Fame's treatment of Rose ridiculous?
    If they admitted Rose, then I'd consider it a joke.

    How they treat steroids is going to be a problem no matter what they do. But that's a philosophical problem that can't be solved with statistics or a different voting process. It's also a problem with what the HOF will be in 10 years, not with what it is today.

    So there are some arguments about some players on the margins. I'm still missing what makes it a joke.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #39
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Rose broke a rule that was in place, with an investigation and penalty. As much as he deserves to be there I can see why he's not. As for the PED users, there was no specific rule, or at least one that was not carried out by testing, investigations, and penalties until Canseco released his book. By that time there was no way to tell who broke the rules and everyone is a suspect. But without any legit proof or admittance you can't ding the entire generation. This is different. Now if a player (like Manny) fails tests in place he is putting his candidacy on the line for numbers, fame and money. That makes sense. Melky Cabrera should never be considered for the Hall of Fame (I know he's likely not a candidate regardless, just for the sake of this point) because he failed a test. This is how we should move forward. As for the guys prior, you have to use the numbers in comparison to their peers. It's the only real way.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  15. #40
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    If they admitted Rose, then I'd consider it a joke.

    How they treat steroids is going to be a problem no matter what they do. But that's a philosophical problem that can't be solved with statistics or a different voting process. It's also a problem with what the HOF will be in 10 years, not with what it is today.

    So there are some arguments about some players on the margins. I'm still missing what makes it a joke.
    Rose deserves to be in the HoF for his performance as a player, but banned for betting on baseball. If the scandal had been uncovered a year or two later, that's exactly what would have happened. They would not have kicked him out of the Hall...but he'd be banned for life.

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  16. #41
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Rose broke a rule that was in place, with an investigation and penalty. As much as he deserves to be there I can see why he's not. As for the PED users, there was no specific rule, or at least one that was not carried out by testing, investigations, and penalties until Canseco released his book. By that time there was no way to tell who broke the rules and everyone is a suspect. But without any legit proof or admittance you can't ding the entire generation. This is different. Now if a player (like Manny) fails tests in place he is putting his candidacy on the line for numbers, fame and money. That makes sense. Melky Cabrera should never be considered for the Hall of Fame (I know he's likely not a candidate regardless, just for the sake of this point) because he failed a test. This is how we should move forward. As for the guys prior, you have to use the numbers in comparison to their peers. It's the only real way.
    Doesn't matter if there was a rule in baseball or not. Anabolic Steroids are illegal in the USA, and have been for quite some time.

    In the U.S., anabolic steroids are currently listed as Schedule III controlled substances under the Controlled Substances Act [since 1990], which makes simply possessing of such substances without a prescription, first offense, a federal crime punishable by up to one year in prison. Unlawful distribution or possession with intent to distribute anabolic steroids punishable as a first offense is punished by up to ten years in prison.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid

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  17. #42
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Rose deserves to be in the HoF for his performance as a player, but banned for betting on baseball. If the scandal had been uncovered a year or two later, that's exactly what would have happened. They would not have kicked him out of the Hall...but he'd be banned for life.
    MLB banned him, not HOF. And Rose actually agreed to it. HOF clearly stated that no banned player would be listed on the ballot. Rose had nothing to blame but himself if he didn't know the consequence when he agreed to his life-time ban.

  18. #43
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Rose deserves to be in the HoF for his performance as a player, but banned for betting on baseball. If the scandal had been uncovered a year or two later, that's exactly what would have happened. They would not have kicked him out of the Hall...but he'd be banned for life.
    There's plenty of room for honoring his accomplishments. He just doesn't get a plaque. Works for me.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  19. #44
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Doesn't matter if there was a rule in baseball or not. Anabolic Steroids are illegal in the USA, and have been for quite some time.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabolic_steroid
    So is drinking and driving but Miggy is pretty much a sure bet if he sustains.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  20. #45
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    So is drinking and driving but Miggy is pretty much a sure bet if he sustains.
    You should have stopped after the first part of your answer:

    So is drinking and driving.

    Correct. SO baseball doesn't need a rule against drinking and driving. They didn't need a rule against steroids.

    Fantasy Baseball: Larrupin' Lou's

  21. #46
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    You should have stopped after the first part of your answer:

    So is drinking and driving.

    Correct. SO baseball doesn't need a rule against drinking and driving. They didn't need a rule against steroids.
    They need it against steroids. But they didn't have it back then.

  22. #47
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    You should have stopped after the first part of your answer:

    So is drinking and driving.

    Correct. SO baseball doesn't need a rule against drinking and driving. They didn't need a rule against steroids.
    Do I really need to explain my point here? No one is going to keep Miggy out of the Hall because of those multiple DWIs he had.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  23. #48
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    They care about cheating and baseball rules so much that they inducted Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton.

  24. #49
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    We should start our own Hall of Fame. No dumbness allowed. Tim Raines is already in.
    Why don't we?

    We can just run some threads on this board and vote for who we think should be in the Hall of Fame and who shouldn't. Anyone who gets 75+% is in, anyone who doesn't isnt is out (no stupid 15 tries thing either).

    Then we'll see if we can get it right.

  25. #50
    #notonemore Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: 11% of ballots collected, no one on track to be elected to HOF

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Do I really need to explain my point here? No one is going to keep Miggy out of the Hall because of those multiple DWIs he had.
    But also DWI does not improve your performance on the field.

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