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  1. #201
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Working under a growth budget of zero is the hallmark of operating like a small market team.
    See, I disagree. It makes a difference what you already have on hand. Plenty of large market teams don't grow their payroll every year. I think your definition has been conveniently arranged to fit your argument.

    It's as if I argued that the Yankees are acting like a young team because the hallmark of a youthful team is that they let veteran players go via free agency. Well, the Yankees let Swisher, Martin, and Soriano go. But that's not an accurate definition; it's one I've manipulated to support my argument. The Yankees remain an old team.

    I think a better definition of 'acting like a small-market team' would be:
    • Seeking to replace highly-paid players you have under contract with low-paid ones, often via trade before they hit free agency
    • Holding down ticket prices to reduce drop-off in attendence
    • Openly rebuilding and accepting several years of non-contending to build a contender in the future
    • Seeking to sign young, good players to contract extensions that buy out their arb years to reduce costs

    and so on. I don't think your definition describes a small-market team, merely one that's not ramping up payroll. The two aren't the same.

    Be seeing you,

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  2. #202
    God Bless the Scooter NYYFAN's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    We wont be like the Dodgers who just got a 7 billion contract from Time Warner...

    'Kick ass. Pop champagne. And get some ho's.'

  3. #203
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxmania View Post
    See, I disagree. It makes a difference what you already have on hand. Plenty of large market teams don't grow their payroll every year. I think your definition has been conveniently arranged to fit your argument.

    It's as if I argued that the Yankees are acting like a young team because the hallmark of a youthful team is that they let veteran players go via free agency. Well, the Yankees let Swisher, Martin, and Soriano go. But that's not an accurate definition; it's one I've manipulated to support my argument. The Yankees remain an old team.

    I think a better definition of 'acting like a small-market team' would be:
    • Seeking to replace highly-paid players you have under contract with low-paid ones, often via trade before they hit free agency
    • Holding down ticket prices to reduce drop-off in attendence
    • Openly rebuilding and accepting several years of non-contending to build a contender in the future
    • Seeking to sign young, good players to contract extensions that buy out their arb years to reduce costs

    and so on. I don't think your definition describes a small-market team, merely one that's not ramping up payroll. The two aren't the same.

    Be seeing you,

    Saxmania
    As usual, on the money. A small market team would be in full fire sale mode, making drastic draconian cuts from this level of payroll.

  4. #204
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    The current payroll is completely irrelevant, the Yankees are not going out there and growing the payroll by close to 200 million. They're not even growing the payroll at all, as the Dodgers, Angels, or Nationals are. The question of the thread is are the Yankees "planning" to operate like a small market team, not have the Yankees "been" acting like a small market team.

    Working under a growth budget of zero is the hallmark of operating like a small market team. The Yankees have the money, Hal just isn't spending it. Instead he's pocketing the true value of the TV rights (some 300-400% higher) by selling lowball contracts to his own YES network whereas the Dodgers & Angels are getting market rates and spending that money to improve the team

    You may feel that the Yankees should be developing from within and not issuing fat overcompensating contracts, which is fair enough. But it doesn't change the notion that the Yankees are now operating like a small market team, at least until through the 2014 season.
    This is pretty easy to agree with. Arguing that they could not "act" like a small market team because they have a $189 million payroll tends to miss the point. The existing payroll reflects how they've acted in the past. How they are acting now, and for the foreseeable future it seems, is with restraint unlike anything we've seen since George bought the team. Arguing that they couldn't be compared with small market teams because they're not fire sale-ing players away is arguing that all small market teams go about their business exactly the same way. Actually, if they acted more like the Oakland A's and get a little creative, I'd be all for it. I'm just not sure who this team is right now.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  5. #205
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...ISdoVo0wFsqqYN

    I'm a little disappointed that Hughes has never developed into the greatness that was once predicted for him as one of the best pitching prospects in the game. However, the idea that the team may not be able to afford him is a little too strange. Coupled with the bottom feeding they're doing this offseason to fill out the roster, it really doesn't look like they're interested in anybody that might cost any amount of money.

    With all the revenues from YES, the new stadium, and the fact that they're the New York Yankees, this is getting a bit weird. If they're going to start running the team like the Oakland A's, maybe they need to hire Billy Beane. I'm not sure this is Cashman's forte.
    If I may join this party late my take on it is some what similar to yours. My fear is that they're heading the way of the New York Mets in that they have money but refuse to spend it. As a Yankee fan it makes me a little nervous. Here's hoping some folks come to their senses in the front office. We'll see.

  6. #206
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Which small market team signs:

    38 year old starting pitcher - 1yr/15million
    39 year old starting pitcher - 1yr/12million
    34 year old infielder - 1yr/12 million

    The Yankees spent 39 million on the 2013 team alone (not including any of the other signings).

    Sorry - but small market teams don't do this....
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  7. #207
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Which small market team signs:

    38 year old starting pitcher - 1yr/15million
    39 year old starting pitcher - 1yr/12million
    34 year old infielder - 1yr/12 million

    The Yankees spent 39 million on the 2013 team alone (not including any of the other signings).

    Sorry - but small market teams don't do this....
    huh?

    those 38 & 39 year old pitchers were already on the team

    Pettite in 2013 is +$9.5M
    Kuroda in 2013 is +$5.0M
    Youkillis 2013 salary is $12M
    (Ichirio is a wash pro-rated)

    total is +$26.5M

    now compare to what was let go:

    Soriano, Rafael - 2013 salary: 14 million
    Swisher, Nick - 2013 salary: 11 million
    Martin, Russell -2013 salary: 6.5 million

    total is -$31.5M

    the numbers are bigger, but actually yeah this is exactly what small market teams do - replace released players with players earning similar money or less

  8. #208
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    huh?

    those 38 & 39 year old pitchers were already on the team

    Pettite in 2013 is +$9.5M
    Kuroda in 2013 is +$5.0M
    Youkillis 2013 salary is $12M
    (Ichirio is a wash pro-rated)

    total is +$26.5M

    now compare to what was let go:

    Soriano, Rafael - 2013 salary: 14 million
    Swisher, Nick - 2013 salary: 11 million
    Martin, Russell -2013 salary: 6.5 million

    total is -$31.5M

    the numbers are bigger, but actually yeah this is exactly what small market teams do - replace released players with players earning similar money or less
    His point, if we were operating like a small market team our payroll would be in the $40 -50 million range TOTAL. In other words, those three would be gone, Cano would be traded, Teixeira would be traded, Jeter might be allowed to stay, Granderson gone. And we wouldn't have been able to spend $12 million on a third baseman when our $28 million third baseman is on the DL. We are nothing like a small market team. We are now like the other BIG market teams with a budget.

  9. #209
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    His point, if we were operating like a small market team our payroll would be in the $40 -50 million range TOTAL. In other words, those three would be gone, Cano would be traded, Teixeira would be traded, Jeter might be allowed to stay, Granderson gone. We are nothing like a small market team. We are now like the other BIG market teams with a budget.
    Nobody is going to argue that the Yankees are a small market team, that's completely laughable. We're talking behavior here. What people are upset about is that they've stopped spending and are cutting the budget. The $189M cap is there to save the Steinbrenners some $20M or so in profits. 90% of business owners would do the same thing.

    But what people don't realize is that they make considerably more than $20M in profits through that sweetheart TV contract to their own YES cable station whereas other teams like the Angels & Dodgers are getting market rates and plowing it back into the team. George Steinbrenner would never run the team this way, for him it was all about winning, reinvestment & growth though equity - not massive annual dividends

  10. #210

    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Every team has a budget. Just because the Yankees NOW have a set budget does not mean they are operating like a small market team.
    EvilEmpireDC: Fans bitch about anything lol

  11. #211
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    I agree that current payroll is irrelevant to this discussion. That payroll was built up almost entirely in previous years, when they were clearly operating like the biggest of big-market teams. However, they're just as clearly changing their model.

    And yes, they've handed out a couple of decent-sized contracts - for one year. The "small-market" critique, like their new operating model, is aimed at 2014, not 2013. They're only spending money this winter if it carries no obligations into the following year.

    I have nothing against trying not to sign bad contracts, or even against trying to save money. What remains to be seen is what their primary consideration will be - building a good team or building a cheaper team. I'm not suggesting that those are mutually exclusive; it's perfectly possible to make good baseball decisions that are not the most expensive (which was basically their previous model). But if you're making inferior decisions just because they're cheap, that's more of a small-market way of thinking.

    I think they've weakened themselves this year for the sake of the 2014 payroll. The real decisions will come next year, though, when they'll have to deal with 1-2 outfield spots, 2b, most of their starting rotation, maybe a catcher, and who knows about shortstop and closer?

    They can save a lot of money at those positions. It remains to be seen what level of quality they can (or are willing to) maintain at the same time.
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  12. #212
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Nobody is going to argue that the Yankees are a small market team, that's completely laughable. We're talking behavior here. What people are upset about is that they've stopped spending and are cutting the budget. The $189M cap is there to save the Steinbrenners some $20M or so in profits. 90% of business owners would do the same thing.

    But what people don't realize is that they make considerably more than $20M in profits through that sweetheart TV contract to their own YES cable station whereas other teams like the Angels & Dodgers are getting market rates and plowing it back into the team. George Steinbrenner would never run the team this way, for him it was all about winning, reinvestment & growth though equity - not massive annual dividends

    If you want to say in a small vacuum of this and next off season that they are going to be very few moves, I agree, but it's hard for me to use small market and Yankees in any context. And while George wanted to win, the Yanks only did so at or after his two suspensions from baseball, hardly a coincidence.

  13. #213
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    huh?

    those 38 & 39 year old pitchers were already on the team

    Pettite in 2013 is +$9.5M
    Kuroda in 2013 is +$5.0M
    Youkillis 2013 salary is $12M
    (Ichirio is a wash pro-rated)

    total is +$26.5M

    now compare to what was let go:

    Soriano, Rafael - 2013 salary: 14 million
    Swisher, Nick - 2013 salary: 11 million
    Martin, Russell -2013 salary: 6.5 million

    total is -$31.5M

    the numbers are bigger, but actually yeah this is exactly what small market teams do - replace released players with players earning similar money or less
    Well - techinically, the pitchers were free agents considering their contracts expired at the end of last season.
    The Yankees, to their advantage, were allowed to negotiate with them before they hit the open market.

    Oh and thanks - I forgot Ichiro....
    Another 6.5 million.

    You can try to bend the numbers and way you'd like to support your arguement but fact has it - at the end of last season, Pettitte, Kuroda, Youk and Ichiro salaries were not accounted for and they had to add those numbers to the payroll. Not just the differences.

    Any way you look at it, the Yankees added 45.5 million dollars to their 2013 payroll.
    Small market teams don't do such things.
    So overall - the answer to the question is a RESOUNDING "no". The Yankees aren't planning on operating like a small market team.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  14. #214
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Oh and thanks - I forgot Ichiro....
    Another 6.5 million.
    That's about what the Yankees paid for him in 2012 prorated from his Seattle contract

  15. #215
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    That's about what the Yankees paid for him in 2012 prorated from his Seattle contract
    Doesn't matter.
    Suzuki signed with the Yankees, 2yrs, 13 million. That's 6.5 million for 2013 they added after the season ended in 2012.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  16. #216
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Is it small-market team behavior to sign a 39-year-old starting pitcher for a 1-year, $15m contract? Even in the context of a net-neutral payroll, that's not a move that a small-market team makes.

    I just don't agree with your definition. Working to a budget is not a small-market team move. Not adding payroll is not a small-market team move. Spending very little money and getting rid of high-priced veterans is a small-market team move.

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    Saxmania
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  17. #217
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    If you want to say in a small vacuum of this and next off season that they are going to be very few moves, I agree, but it's hard for me to use small market and Yankees in any context. And while George wanted to win, the Yanks only did so at or after his two suspensions from baseball, hardly a coincidence.
    I don't know if they're just planning to do it for 2014-15 or not. They're going to have to be below the cap both years to get the full benefit, and then we'll see what they do after that.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  18. #218
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I don't know if they're just planning to do it for 2014-15 or not. They're going to have to be below the cap both years to get the full benefit, and then we'll see what they do after that.
    I do think the days of "want a player, sign a player" are over, I think there will definitely be a budget that is followed, though I still think it'll put us in the top 2 or 3 in the league.

  19. #219
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxmania View Post
    I just don't agree with your definition. Working to a budget is not a small-market team move. Not adding payroll is not a small-market team move. Spending very little money and getting rid of high-priced veterans is a small-market team move.
    that's fine, but I think where this "small market" operations notion came from is less to do with setting a budget and more to do with seeing key role players like Martin & Chavez sign elsewhere because the Yankees wouldn't match offers for relatively small contracts, and then being outbid on other free agents (in an admittedly crappy class of available players this year) and looking in the bargain bin to fill open needs

  20. #220
    Sunny days ahead YankeePride1967's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    that's fine, but I think where this "small market" operations notion came from is less to do with setting a budget and more to do with seeing key role players like Martin & Chavez sign elsewhere because the Yankees wouldn't match offers for relatively small contracts, and then being outbid on other free agents (in an admittedly crappy class of available players this year) and looking in the bargain bin to fill open needs
    Or in other words setting a budget and not going above it.

  21. #221

    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I don't know if they're just planning to do it for 2014-15 or not. They're going to have to be below the cap both years to get the full benefit, and then we'll see what they do after that.
    that's my plan

  22. #222
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    that's fine, but I think where this "small market" operations notion came from is less to do with setting a budget and more to do with seeing key role players like Martin & Chavez sign elsewhere because the Yankees wouldn't match offers for relatively small contracts, and then being outbid on other free agents (in an admittedly crappy class of available players this year) and looking in the bargain bin to fill open needs
    Are you suggesting we should have spent money on these crappy free agents?
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  23. #223
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    Are you suggesting we should have spent money on these crappy free agents?
    Not sure anyone's advocating spending money on crappy players, but teams have been pretty active this winter making deals too. The Yankees don't seem to be outwardly interested in anybody. With holes to fill on this team, they seem content to wing it.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  24. #224

    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    "The Yankees’ benefits for reducing their payroll below the $189 million luxury-tax threshold in 2014 might not be as lucrative as they originally envisioned.


    PRICEY ROSTERS
    See which teams are shelling out the highest MLB payrolls in 2013.
    The team would realize one financial incentive by meeting its payroll target — a rollback in its luxury-tax rate from a potential 50 percent to 17.5 percent if it again exceeded the threshold.

    But the second anticipated benefit — a rebate in the new market-disqualification revenue-sharing program — might fall well below the Yankees’ expectations.

    Under the labor agreement, the 15 clubs in the largest markets will forfeit an increasing percentage of their revenue-sharing proceeds starting in 2013, and become ineligible for any such money by '16.

    The revenue-sharing funds that would have gone to those clubs then would be redistributed to payors such as the Yankees. The idea is to motivate certain big-market clubs — the Toronto Blue Jays, for example — to increase their revenues, knowing that they no longer would qualify for revenue-sharing money.

    From that perspective, the plan appears to be working — the Blue Jays, Washington Nationals and Atlanta Braves are among the big-market clubs that anticipate higher revenues next season, according to major league sources.

    Such developments would reduce the size of the market-disqualification pot — and in turn reduce the percentage of that pot the Yankees would receive.


    HOT STOVE
    Our experts bring you all latest offseason news. Read MLB Buzz.
    The Yankees anticipated $10 million from the market-disqualification program if they got below the luxury-tax threshold one time and $40 million if they stayed under it from 2014 to '16, according to Joel Sherman of the New York Post.

    If those figures turn out to be less than the Yankees projected, it would raise the question of why the team acted so diligently to get under $189 million by 2014.

    Yankees officials, however, maintain that the team’s offseason strategy has not been influenced by future luxury-tax considerations. They say the front office simply is not enamored with the players on the market.
    "

    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/s...termine-012213
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  25. #225
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    Re: Are the Yankees planning to operate like a small market team?

    I don't know why everyone is getting into definitions of small market or big market.

    The Yankees have changed stratagies.

    They missed the boat by not loading up on the draft and IFA before the new rules set in.

    They had more money left over in the draft pool than anyone (10%?) in last years draft when they had about the least amount of money to spend.

    Big name prospect after big name prospect that is available to them without tax dollars (Yu Darvish, etc.) is passed on and they aren't interested.

    You guys are whistling past the grave yard.

    The new stadium is crippling the finances, this has nothing to do with George being gone, well mostly none. They have this billion dollar stadium and its most pricey seats are still empty. You can see it on TV on any given night.

    They can say its for luxury tax $ or whatevever and you guys can argue definitions all you want. But they Yankees have gone cheap. Josh Hamilton would have been a Yankee at 5 years and $25 mil if not.
    [B]WARNING![/B] This post may be offensive to little girly men or women with soft feelings.

    Never [B]argue with an idiot[/B]. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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