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  1. #76

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Is this concluded from logic that claims the better team wins every series?
    Just because the Tigers beat the Yankees in the ALCS does not make them the better team.
    Go ahead and read my post again, then let me know if I said the Tigers were "better" than the Yankees.

    The Yankees are almost always "better" on paper than the teams that beat them in the playoffs. Almost every single time.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  2. #77
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Well, ArodEra, or should I call you CabreEra wannabe, I think you did misunderstand me, or perhaps I misunderstood your original post.

    I thought you meant that you would rather root for the Tiger lineup wearing Yankee pinstripes and an interlocking NY hat than the Yankee lineup wearing Yankee pinstripes and an interlocking NY hat. And I thought that highlighted the curious and irrational tendency of fans rooting for laundry rather than individual players or managers whom they find interesting or fun to watch. I think that rooting for particular players or managers is a lot more rational than rooting for a uniform and a logo, the way you and I root for the Yankees. I think it is much more rational, and not more or less commendable, to root for a team that is exciting or otherwise interesting at a particular time. There is nothing morally inferior, or superior, about being a "fair weather fan," in the words of another poster.

    I actually do that in other sports, especially professional basketball, where my allegiances vary as players switch teams. I do not necessarily root for the best teams, but I tend not to root for the worst teams, and I do not think my lack of attention to uniforms and my inconstancy is any less, or more, worthy than my constancy and loyalty toward the Yankees, including through the late 60s and early 70s and late 80s and early 90s.

    I really don't completely understand why I have been so loyal to the Yankees over the past half century. I do not even live in NY or the NY area. Maybe it is a connection to my childhood and my family. It is in any event irrational.

    I will say that I do get attached to certain Yankee players whom I find interesting, however. And I would never go so far as to say I would trade them all for the roster of another team, even if I thought that other team was superior. However, that certainly does not make my orientation superior to someone, like apparently you, who would do so. I am just a different kind of fan, not a better kind.

    I guess I posted above just to highlight the curiosity of being a fan generally.
    That was a very interesting read.

    I also have teams I root for outside the Yankees, I'm a Pirates fan (and a closet Rays fan) but I am a Yankee fan and that will never change. They are priority. It's not just laundry. It's a symbol. It's a logo. It's a name. It's a city. You are over simplifying what it means to love a team.
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  3. #78

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    I certainly did not intend to suggest that sticking with a team is always simple or even usually simple for people like me who stick with a team in another city. I think it is often a very complex psychological attachment. Irrationality usually is complex.

    Actually I do not fully understand even my own loyalty.

    I will say I am different than some fan-posters here, perhaps including Arod Era, because I get attached to certain players. Hence, I would much rather have the Yankees win next year with a similar team to that of 2012 than have them win with a totally new team, say one made up of current Tigers. Indeed, I don't think I would ever say I wish the Yankees could switch rosters with another team, regardless of how much better that team looked on paper. That doesn't make me a better fan, just a somewhat different kind of fan.

  4. #79

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    I certainly did not intend to suggest that sticking with a team is always simple or even usually simple for people like me who stick with a team in another city. I think it is often a very complex psychological attachment. Irrationality usually is complex.

    Actually I do not fully understand even my own loyalty.

    I will say I am different than some fan-posters here, perhaps including Arod Era, because I get attached to certain players. Hence, I would much rather have the Yankees win next year with a similar team to that of 2012 than have them win with a totally new team, say one made up of current Tigers. Indeed, I don't think I would ever say I wish the Yankees could switch rosters with another team, regardless of how much better that team looked on paper. That doesn't make me a better fan, just a somewhat different kind of fan.
    You might be reading more into his post than he intended to put there.

    I actually agree with his sentiment that if you traded the Yankees' entire roster for the Tigers' entire roster, the Yankees would probably improve. (Especially if you allow the Yankees to keep their immense financial advantages, giving them the resources to improve that roster even further.) But that doesn't really mean he has no loyalty to the players and just roots for the laundry. I'm guessing it's just a simple thought experiment, nothing more.

    If I had to explain why I'm a fan of the Yankees, I'd say it started because the 1977 / 1978 teams were my "first love" as a sports fan. When their amazing success was followed by the tragic death of Thurman Munson, that cemented a lifelong loyalty to the franchise. I'd had my formative experiences with this team, good and bad, and nothing was ever going to break that bond. It doesn't matter that I haven't lived in New York for 24 years now.

    As I grew old enough to learn the game's history, and to appreciate how much of that history is the history of the Yankees, I took immense pride in the accomplishments of players who'd lived and died before I was even born. Ruth and Gehrig and DiMaggio and Mantle became part of my experience, and my identity, as a fan ... in exactly the same way that Washington and Lincoln and FDR and Martin Luther King became part of my experience and identity as a citizen. And maybe -- keeping relative importance clearly in perspective, mind you -- my identification with the pinstripes and the interlocking NY is a bit like my identification with the American flag or other symbols of my love for my country. It doesn't mean I never find fault with my team (or my country), but it does mean I'm always mindful of past glories, hopeful to see them repeated, expecting great things in the future, and ready to hold the appropriate stewards accountable if they fall short.

    I'm not going to lie to you, during my college years (1988-1992) the Yankees absolutely sucked and I couldn't care less about watching them. I had better things to do. I cared only about one player, Don Mattingly, and I followed him with a combination of hope and bitterness because that back injury derailed what should have been a HOF career. That was the first time I would say my appreciation for one player rivaled or even exceeded my appreciation for the team as a whole. (In the worst-case scenario where the weight of awful contracts and the drive to get payroll under $189M cause the Yankees to play mediocre baseball for a couple of years, I'd probably feel the same way about Derek Jeter. Not because I think any one player is bigger than the team, but because taking joy in the accomplishments of individual players is the best defense mechanism against the pain of feeling like the team -- in the front office or on the field -- has let you down.)

    Anyway, my graduation coincided pretty nicely with the first stirrings of the team's resurgence, and when the Yankees started taking real steps to build a winner again (the arrival of Showalter, O'Neill, Boggs, etc.) I took notice and jumped right back on board. Like a lot of fans, as much as any other season in my lifetime, 1995 is still burned into my memory. And I'll go one further by saying 1994 was bitterly disappointing not only for the game itself, but also because I was sure it was the Yankees' year.

    We've been extremely fortunate to root for this team over the past two decades, but I'd argue that Yankee fans have had as much heartbreak as anybody else over this stretch. There has been a lot of disappointment to go with a lot of truly amazing high points. As a new generation (including my own kids) now knows, these shared experiences -- good and bad -- are what make a fan stay with his or her team for life. I guess you could call that irrational, but if you extrapolate that idea to its logical conclusion, it's also irrational to stay in touch with your parents once you grow up and leave the house.
    Last edited by sweet_lou_14; 11-18-12 at 11:34 AM.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  5. #80

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    I will say I am different than some fan-posters here, perhaps including Arod Era, because I get attached to certain players. Hence, I would much rather have the Yankees win next year with a similar team to that of 2012 than have them win with a totally new team, say one made up of current Tigers. Indeed, I don't think I would ever say I wish the Yankees could switch rosters with another team, regardless of how much better that team looked on paper. That doesn't make me a better fan, just a somewhat different kind of fan.
    rajah, sorry for responding so late (I haven't revisited this thread til now). Again, I think there's a slight misunderstanding as I didn't literally mean that I'd instantly show more loyalty toward the Tigers players if rosters were switched, merely that I wish the Yankees would be, at this point in time, as good and young as the Tiger's core. That said, who wouldn't prefer a team of Cabrera at 3rd, Fielder at 1st, AJax at CF, Hunter in the OF and Verlander in the rotation over the Yankees' offerings at those positions? But, like you said, it's not only about the laundry.

    Anyway, sweet lou expresses my sentiments when I wrote that post better than I could have (thanks sweet lou):

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    You might be reading more into his post than he intended to put there.

    I actually agree with his sentiment that if you traded the Yankees' entire roster for the Tigers' entire roster, the Yankees would probably improve. (Especially if you allow the Yankees to keep their immense financial advantages, giving them the resources to improve that roster even further.) But that doesn't really mean he has no loyalty to the players and just roots for the laundry. I'm guessing it's just a simple thought experiment, nothing more.


  6. #81

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I never said all people. Just people.
    But for the love of all things good, I cannot understand why someone would want a roster that only won 88 games in the weakest division in the majors?

    Could it possibly be that maybe the Yankees are better but had a bad series against the Tigers?
    Because believe me, if people are frustrated with the Yankee roster and the way they play during the season, it's gotta be MORE frustrating to be a Tiger rooter. Simply because.... the Tigers roster loses more.
    I don't think that the outcome of the ALCS influenced my decision at all. Perhaps it did others, but not me. Nor does the final regular season record of both teams, or the division that they play in matter much to me. After all, I believe that the Tigers had a better record than the Yanks against teams that were = or > than .500 during the regular season, as someone else pointed out.

    I'm merely looking at both rosters, particularly the position players, starting rotation, players in decline vs. players in their prime, their ace, and most importantly, the age of the respective core players. I'm sorry, but in my opinion the Tigers come out ahead of the Yankees. I'm surprised that others believe otherwise. At the very least, the Tigers certainly don't suck or as some say "not very good."


  7. #82
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Go ahead and read my post again, then let me know if I said the Tigers were "better" than the Yankees.

    The Yankees are almost always "better" on paper than the teams that beat them in the playoffs. Almost every single time.
    It has nothing to do with paper.
    The Yankees won more games than any team in the American League and they did so while playing in the toughest division.
    They proved, on the field, that they were a better team.
    The Yankees went cold in the October and got beat by an inferior team in the ALCS.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  8. #83
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    lol... I thought he retired 2 years ago.

  9. #84

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    It has nothing to do with paper.
    The Yankees won more games than any team in the American League and they did so while playing in the toughest division.
    They proved, on the field, that they were a better team.
    The Yankees went cold in the October and got beat by an inferior team in the ALCS.
    That's your analysis and you're welcome to it.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  10. #85
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    That's your analysis and you're welcome to it.
    I thank you for that Lou....
    But really - is there another way to see it?
    Keep in mind, the 2012 Yankees played a boatload of the season without a few of their stars.
    I just wonder how many games they would have won had A-Rod, CC, Tex, Pettitte and Rivera been healthy all year...
    And put that healthy roster in the Central Division where they get to play the Indians, Twins and Royals 54 times.... Whoa.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  11. #86
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I thank you for that Lou....
    But really - is there another way to see it?
    Keep in mind, the 2012 Yankees played a boatload of the season without a few of their stars.
    I just wonder how many games they would have won had A-Rod, CC, Tex, Pettitte and Rivera been healthy all year...
    And put that healthy roster in the Central Division where they get to play the Indians, Twins and Royals 54 times.... Whoa.
    You're playing a bit of woulda coulda shoulda though. Would you be surprised if (assuming Pettitte and Rivera are back) if those same players missed games in '12 given their recent track records and ages? I wouldn't. Gardner hopefully comes back and produces for a full season though, giving them better than the .241 / .312 / .415 with 14 SB they got from LF last year (and they finally get wise and move him to CF).

    How many more games would the Tigers have won with V-Mart at DH instead of Young, or if Jackson didn't miss 20 games, or Fister miss a bunch of starts, or Valverde not go from an elite season to an absolute bomb, etc.

    The Tigers have already made a move to improve their offense/defense. It remains to be seen what the Yankees do during the offseason. Sure, if guys like A-Rod and Tex spring back to near career norms, and they have less injuries, that could change things too. But if I'm being objective knowing what we know now, I'd have to give the edge to the Tigers lineup next season. And the rotation (particularly with Kuroda and Pettitte and Pineda still question marks) is a pretty clear edge for the Tigers. Bullpen edge goes to the Yankees (unless the Tigers nab Soriano, making that a much closer matchup).

  12. #87
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    You're playing a bit of woulda coulda shoulda though. Would you be surprised if (assuming Pettitte and Rivera are back) if those same players missed games in '12 given their recent track records and ages? I wouldn't. Gardner hopefully comes back and produces for a full season though, giving them better than the .241 / .312 / .415 with 14 SB they got from LF last year (and they finally get wise and move him to CF).

    How many more games would the Tigers have won with V-Mart at DH instead of Young, or if Jackson didn't miss 20 games, or Fister miss a bunch of starts, or Valverde not go from an elite season to an absolute bomb, etc.

    The Tigers have already made a move to improve their offense/defense. It remains to be seen what the Yankees do during the offseason. Sure, if guys like A-Rod and Tex spring back to near career norms, and they have less injuries, that could change things too. But if I'm being objective knowing what we know now, I'd have to give the edge to the Tigers lineup next season. And the rotation (particularly with Kuroda and Pettitte and Pineda still question marks) is a pretty clear edge for the Tigers. Bullpen edge goes to the Yankees (unless the Tigers nab Soriano, making that a much closer matchup).
    I think everyone is playing the coulda-shoulda game.....
    The original claim was to the affect of: the Tigers roster is preferred because it's better than the Yankees' roster.
    I'll full out disagree because the Yankees proved, on the field, during the 162 game season, they were the best team in the American League.
    There is no way anyone can deny that.
    They went cold in October and lost to the Tigers.
    Yankee fans generally don't watch the Tigers day in and day out.
    If they were frustrated with a Yankee team that lost 67 games, how much more frustrating would it have been to have your team lose 74 games?
    The logic just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you prefer a roster that lost more games than the team you root for?

    The Yankees played most of the season without Alex, most of the season without Pettitte, two DL stints by CC, Tex missed a buncha games at the end of the season... And still won 95 games. Yes - the Tigers may have been better with V-Mart, But V-Mart wasn't in the Tigers' plans at all for 2012. The better comparison is - imagine what the Tiger record would have been if Cabrera missed 60+ days of the season and Fielder missed the last 30+ days of the season and Scherzer missed 20 starts.... Let's see how the Tigers woulda done then....
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  13. #88
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    I think everyone is playing the coulda-shoulda game.....
    The original claim was to the affect of: the Tigers roster is preferred because it's better than the Yankees' roster.
    I'll full out disagree because the Yankees proved, on the field, during the 162 game season, they were the best team in the American League.
    There is no way anyone can deny that.
    They went cold in October and lost to the Tigers.
    Yankee fans generally don't watch the Tigers day in and day out.
    If they were frustrated with a Yankee team that lost 67 games, how much more frustrating would it have been to have your team lose 74 games?
    The logic just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you prefer a roster that lost more games than the team you root for?

    The Yankees played most of the season without Alex, most of the season without Pettitte, two DL stints by CC, Tex missed a buncha games at the end of the season... And still won 95 games. Yes - the Tigers may have been better with V-Mart, But V-Mart wasn't in the Tigers' plans at all for 2012. The better comparison is - imagine what the Tiger record would have been if Cabrera missed 60+ days of the season and Fielder missed the last 30+ days of the season and Scherzer missed 20 starts.... Let's see how the Tigers woulda done then....
    Because ArodEra wasn't saying "if we could go back in time"... he was saying for '13/beyond he'd prefer the talent on their roster. And this year's W/L record doesn't make a good sole argument for who will get better production next year.

    Of course, that's not to mention the $53MM or so that said Tigers roster is under the lux tax, so you could argue that the Yankees' FO could make even more improvements if they had the Tigers lineup.

    I'm not conceding anything at all, and frankly I like rooting for the majority of the guys on the current Yankee roster regardless. But if you're being objective, it's really hard to say you'd prefer the current Yankee roster to that of the Tigers going forward just in terms of what they get for the money.

  14. #89
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    You're playing a bit of woulda coulda shoulda though. Would you be surprised if (assuming Pettitte and Rivera are back) if those same players missed games in '12 given their recent track records and ages? I wouldn't. Gardner hopefully comes back and produces for a full season though, giving them better than the .241 / .312 / .415 with 14 SB they got from LF last year (and they finally get wise and move him to CF).
    Yes, the Yankees should get a nice improvement from LF, even nicer if Gardner is in CF. On the other hand, they've lost Swisher's production outright.
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  15. #90
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    I've been reading this argument for a couple of days now and mulling over how I would feel if I had the opportunity to flip rosters. I fought for and cited the 95 wins in the AL East the Yanks had this year and would have been happy to go into this post season with the roster we had 100 times out of a 100. Who knew that for a week the Yankees offense would wind up anemic? That to me was a complete surprise that I highly doubt woudl repeat itself. But we'll never know. What's done is done.

    However moving forward I wouldn't mind flipping the rosters. With the cap issue and the fact that 4 or 5 players account for, what, 60% of the cap I think? I would rather have the Yankees money combined with that team for 2013 and beyond. For 2012 I take the Yankees roster, hands down with the 7 extra wins in a much tougher division.

    I think we're heading for a lull pretty soon, probably starting this upcoming year and it will probably last a year or two before anything huge happens. I'm okay with that, I have seen more success and championships than any other baseball fan will probably ever see so I'll be okay with it. However in this fantasy world of flipping rosters I wouldn't think twice about doing it for 2013. And the first thing I'd do is get a Fister jersey.
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  16. #91

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Who knew that for a week the Yankees offense would wind up anemic? That to me was a complete surprise that I highly doubt woudl repeat itself. But we'll never know. What's done is done.
    Why is it that the Yankees went cold for a week? Why isn't it that they really weren't as good as we thought and got shut down by the Tigers' pitching and scouting? The Yankees barely survived Baltimore, too.

    Keep in mind, I'm not necessarily trying to trash the Yankees roster. But I'm saying that the "good team goes cold" explanation can't be taken as a given.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  17. #92
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    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    I can't explain it, I have no idea why it happened. But what I do know is that the baseball season is set up to be a marathon and the Yankees had 95 wins. You don't win 95 games with a bad team. The Pirates started out hot and look what happened. The Mets were making a case and they fell. You have to be a good team to win 95 games. What happened in the playoffs was just odd.
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  18. #93

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I can't explain it, I have no idea why it happened. But what I do know is that the baseball season is set up to be a marathon and the Yankees had 95 wins. You don't win 95 games with a bad team. The Pirates started out hot and look what happened. The Mets were making a case and they fell. You have to be a good team to win 95 games. What happened in the playoffs was just odd.
    Do you believe in the idea that some rosters are built better for the playoffs than for the regular season? I know I do, at least with respect to pitching (the top 2 or 3 starters and the top 2 or 3 relievers get a much higher percentage of the innings). Maybe not so much with hitting.

    Of course the one thing the Yankees did in this year's playoffs was pitch.

    If I had to offer an explanation for the Yankees' failure in the ALCS this year, it's simply this. That Game 1 loss was an absolute crusher. When they tied the game in the ninth, there was a feeling that they couldn't possibly lose that night. Hell, there was a feeling they couldn't possibly fail to win the World Series at that moment. Then they couldn't score and completely fell apart with Swisher's inexcusable missed fly ball and Jeter's broken ankle. The crowd got ugly -- ugly enough for players to mention it to the press and for there to be whispers that some Yankee players were shaken by it.

    This is a team that knew they'd had a very streaky 95-win season, that was used to the idea of long dry spells where the whole team seemed to lose it for a stretch of games. They suddenly knew they'd put themselves in a big hole and had lost their captain and one of the only hitters that was producing. I think it all got in their heads.

    Of course I have no way to prove this, and I know well that armchair psychology doesn't go over big around here. I try not to dabble in it too much. But I think they were done as soon as Jeter went down, I really do.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  19. #94

    Re: Tigers to Sign Torii Hunter

    Unfortunately, the Yankees roster is going to be made primarily for the regular season. The AL East is tough.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

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