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  1. #26
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Nobody has shown a tangible connection between the two.

    This is no different than the "clutch" argument.

    Did Kenny Lofton do poorly because of NYC? I'm inclined to believe it had more to do with a declining skillset.

    Ichiro is a very private person - yet somehow he thrived in NYC.

  2. #27

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    A few of us already did, but you chose to blow it off, so I'm not going to bother repeating myself again...

    Research some of the names that were already mentioned, and you may be surprised to learn that in many cases, these players admitted as much themselves.
    I didn't blow anything of. The examples given were extremely easy to disprove. If a player admits to being anything like that it only proves that the player did not like playing in New York.

  3. #28
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    I didn't blow anything of. The examples given were extremely easy to disprove. If a player admits to being anything like that it only proves that the player did not like playing in New York.
    Well, that's kind of the point, you won't like playing in a place that makes you feel uncomfortable and as a result, your performance will suffer because you're worrying about all the distractions instead of playing with a clear head.

    I suggest you read Ed Whitson's interview with ESPN a couple of years ago - he openly admitted that the pressure of playing in NY got to him and affected his performance.

    I'll take his word over those who've never played the game, but sit there and play armchair psychologist.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  4. #29
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Well, that's kind of the point, you won't like playing in a place that makes you feel uncomfortable and as a result, your performance will suffer because you're worrying about all the distractions instead of playing with a clear head.

    I suggest you read Ed Whitson's interview with ESPN a couple of years ago - he openly admitted that the pressure of playing in NY got to him and affected his performance.

    I'll take his word over those who've never played the game, but sit there and play armchair psychologist.
    What's that got to do with Greinke's SAD?

  5. #30
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksphan View Post
    Nobody has shown a tangible connection between the two.

    This is no different than the "clutch" argument.

    Did Kenny Lofton do poorly because of NYC? I'm inclined to believe it had more to do with a declining skillset.

    Ichiro is a very private person - yet somehow he thrived in NYC.
    The whole line of reasoning is a non-sequitor though. Granting that some people don't like playing in the New York environment, and granting for the sake of argument that that hurts their performance, that tells us nothing about what any other player will do, and certainly has nothing to do with Greinke's clinical anxiety condition. It's just neither here nor there.

  6. #31
    The gerbil lives Zimmers' Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    What's that got to do with Greinke's SAD?
    It's in response to previous comments stating that there's no such thing as "can't handle the pressure of playing in NY".
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  7. #32

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Well, that's kind of the point, you won't like playing in a place that makes you feel uncomfortable and as a result, your performance will suffer because you're worrying about all the distractions instead of playing with a clear head.

    I suggest you read Ed Whitson's interview with ESPN a couple of years ago - he openly admitted that the pressure of playing in NY got to him and affected his performance.

    I'll take his word over those who've never played the game, but sit there and play armchair psychologist.
    People who accuse players they are dissapointed in of not being able to handle new york are the ones who are playing armchair psychologist. Ed Whitson had bad seasons in lots of cities. He says new york is the reason for his failures and like you, he cant prove it. Some would actually call that excuse making. Not liking where you live and play can obviously effect performance, but that isnt unique to NY and cant tangibly be linked to pressure. You don't have to be an ex major leaguer to know if a tangible connection is or isn't being made. If it makes you feel any better though, I do currently play organized baseball. Former minor leaguers Albert Fagan and Damien Myers are among the former drafted players in the league (both have struck me out easily )

  8. #33
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    The whole line of reasoning is a non-sequitor though. Granting that some people don't like playing in the New York environment, and granting for the sake of argument that that hurts their performance, that tells us nothing about what any other player will do, and certainly has nothing to do with Greinke's clinical anxiety condition. It's just neither here nor there.
    While it may not accurately tell us about an individual player's projected response to the New York fishbowl, I wouldn't necessarily concur that it's neither here nor there. The reality is that there is history of this happening with certain players. I think it's fair to be concerned about players like Greinke, who have their own history of clinical anxieties in the past, and their likelihood of overcoming the pressure cooker environment that playing for the Yankees can represent. Obviously, this is not an absolute, but I wouldn't fault anyone for being skeptical about certain players performing at their highest levels here.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  9. #34
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    While it may not accurately tell us about an individual player's projected response to the New York fishbowl, I wouldn't necessarily concur that it's neither here nor there. The reality is that there is history of this happening with certain players. I think it's fair to be concerned about players like Greinke, who have their own history of clinical anxieties in the past, and their likelihood of overcoming the pressure cooker environment that playing for the Yankees can represent. Obviously, this is not an absolute, but I wouldn't fault anyone for being skeptical about certain players performing at their highest levels here.
    Well, except for the part where that's not how clinical anxiety problems work, anyway.

  10. #35
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    Well, except for the part where that's not how clinical anxiety problems work, anyway.
    Clinical anxiety problems work in all sorts of different ways.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  11. #36

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by 35Knucklecurve View Post
    I think you can add Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown to the list. Although RJ didn't seem to have any predisposition toward not being able to handle pressure, he was miserable in NY. His reaction to a photograher on the street not long after he signed could have been caution flag. Brown was already a basket case, so he didn't have far to go.
    He might have been miserable, but the thing that limited his productivity was his lower back disc problems. I don't think the NY atmosphere affected his play at all

    Given those back problems, he actually did pretty well. He gave innings at a pretty good quality

    4.6, and 3.6 WAR, 3.43 and 4.27xFIP , 225 and 200 IP
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  12. #37

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    He might have been miserable, but the thing that limited his productivity was his lower back disc problems. I don't think the NY atmosphere affected his play at all

    Given those back problems, he actually did pretty well. He gave innings at a pretty good quality

    4.6, and 3.6 WAR, 3.43 and 4.27xFIP , 225 and 200 IP
    Yeah but he didn't win the Cy Young and he wasn't friendly and jovial and the Yankees didn't win the World Series when he was here, so CLEARLY he was unclutch and couldn't handle New York. It's simple logic.

  13. #38

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    I think that the NY thing is slightly overblown. However, I do believe that there is an added sense of urgency to do well. If you're a name brand player & you struggle, you are going to get obliterated by the media & the fans. I still can't believe people were throwing a fit over Swisher smiling in the postseason.

    Having a bunch of people telling you how awful you are on a regular basis has to suck, and I can see how that can cause a player to press in order to "prove everyone wrong."

    I have nothing to back this up though so I won't pretend like it's a fact. I do think that to completely dismiss/mock the notion that a player can struggle in a city where everything you do is looked at under a microscope is ignorant.

    So to sum it up, my stance is that I do believe it is possible someone can struggle in NY because it can be a very unforgiving place to play.

  14. #39
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Clinical anxiety problems work in all sorts of different ways.
    I'll take your word for it.

    While I think the OP is missing the mark I tend to agree with hin that there is no evidence that Grienke's anxiety disorder in and of it self would affect his performance more positively or more negatively than in any other particular city he happens to sign with.

    Now it may or may not be that Grienke is or is not a "guy who can't handle New York" but I think that is a seperate issue from his anxiety disorder.

    But as I said before I can totally understand the Yanks not wanting thow $100M+ at this guy for numerous reasons.
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  15. #40
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    I'm certainly not qualified to make a judgement one way or the other, but would it not stand to reason that if an individual has an anxiety disorder, he would react more negatively to a situation that was more conducive to high stress and anxiety than he would to a less stressful situation? For example, east coast vs west coast, or big market vs small market?
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  16. #41
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    I'm certainly not qualified to make a judgement one way or the other, but would it not stand to reason that if an individual has an anxiety disorder, he would react more negatively to a situation that was more conducive to high stress and anxiety than he would to a less stressful situation? For example, east coast vs west coast, or big market vs small market?
    That's the problem: you're acting as though it's a matter of rational processing, when it's really a chemical disorder of the brain.

  17. #42
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Brien Jackson View Post
    That's the problem: you're acting as though it's a matter of rational processing, when it's really a chemical disorder of the brain.
    I agree that pathological anxiety is irrational by definition, but I don't think it can be said with such assurance that "it's really a chemical disorder of the brain.". Yes, there are neurochemical processes underlying those irrational thoughts, as there are with every thought we have. That's not saying the same thing, though. Notice that while Dr. Carleton starts by acknowledging the powerful influence of neurochemsitry, he goes on to discuss SAD primarily as a cognitive disorder rather then a chemical one.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  18. #43
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    In my opinion the only person who knows if he can handle it is him. The fact that he has sought out the Yankees with interest of playing here tells me he is good to go. I understand his price is something that is not desirable under the current mindset of the Yankees, however I would love to see his name in our rotation if it were possible. He's a stud.
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  19. #44
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    People who accuse players they are dissapointed in of not being able to handle new york are the ones who are playing armchair psychologist. Ed Whitson had bad seasons in lots of cities. He says new york is the reason for his failures and like you, he cant prove it. Some would actually call that excuse making. Not liking where you live and play can obviously effect performance, but that isnt unique to NY and cant tangibly be linked to pressure. You don't have to be an ex major leaguer to know if a tangible connection is or isn't being made. If it makes you feel any better though, I do currently play organized baseball. Former minor leaguers Albert Fagan and Damien Myers are among the former drafted players in the league (both have struck me out easily )
    I endorse this post.
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  20. #45
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    In my opinion the only person who knows if he can handle it is him. The fact that he has sought out the Yankees with interest of playing here tells me he is good to go. I understand his price is something that is not desirable under the current mindset of the Yankees, however I would love to see his name in our rotation if it were possible. He's a stud.
    i thought at one point he indicated he didn't want to come to New York though. I'm not saying he couldn't come here and achieve as he would anywhere else, but given the Yankees' seeming commitment to contain spend, I don't think they'd guarantee him large years/dollars.

  21. #46
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    i thought at one point he indicated he didn't want to come to New York though. I'm not saying he couldn't come here and achieve as he would anywhere else, but given the Yankees' seeming commitment to contain spend, I don't think they'd guarantee him large years/dollars.
    Is my info off? I thought I remembered reading something about him reaching out to the Yankees at one point. I know his price doesn't work at all right now but I am not going to protest due to his anxiety issues. If he hasn't fell victim to it now at this stage in his career I'm going to assume it's under control and he can handle it.
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  22. #47

    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I agree that pathological anxiety is irrational by definition, but I don't think it can be said with such assurance that "it's really a chemical disorder of the brain.". Yes, there are neurochemical processes underlying those irrational thoughts, as there are with every thought we have. That's not saying the same thing, though. Notice that while Dr. Carleton starts by acknowledging the powerful influence of neurochemsitry, he goes on to discuss SAD primarily as a cognitive disorder rather then a chemical one.
    In your opinion, can cognitive disorders lead to chemical changes- sort of a reinforcing cycle?
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  23. #48
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    In your opinion, can cognitive disorders lead to chemical changes- sort of a reinforcing cycle?
    Sure.

    I actually don't know what I'd consider the root cause of anxiety disorders in general, or to what extent different DSM diagnoses represent different underlying disorders, or a whole host of other things about them. I just don't think anyone else has definitive answers to those questions, either - especially when it comes to an individual case. Discussing Social Anxiety Disorder as something clearly separate and distinguishable from other anxiety disorders, and making absolute statements about its cause or manifestations, suggests we know a whole lot more than we do.

    I've said for a long time that concerns about Greinke's disorder shouldn't be exaggerated. To me, the most important consideration is that he's been under treatment - successfully - for the last six years. When it first became debilitating, Greinke probably had no idea what was going on; by now, I assume he's much more aware of it and able to recognize the symptoms. Could being in NY be more stressful for him, and put him at risk for increased anxiety? Sure, it could, and it's presumptuous to assert that that's irrelevant. But if he's being treated and monitored, and he's able to recognize and report his own symptoms, any changes can probably be addressed much more quickly and effectively.

    Also, if the Yankees were interested in signing him, they'd have access to his medical records.
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  24. #49
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Those of you who ask for a "tangible" correlation between playing in NY and on-the-field performance will never see it because it does not exist as a stat, per say. You cannot look at Pavano's disasterous signing and say 100% for sure that he caved in and sat on the DL for the great majority of his contract because he didn't think he could handle the pressure of being a starting pitcher for the New York Yankees. However, how many people actually believe that a bruised butt kept him from pitching for an entire season? Randy Johnson had back issues that are well documented. Still, he took the ball and pitched with pain. If you're already hurting and you throw in the intense dislike for invasion of privacy and constant media attention, it's not going to help your physical ailments one bit. As I stated previously, Torre recognized that RJ's misery was not confined to a herniated disc.

    Nobody knows for sure how many players have been adversely affected on the field by the extra pressure that comes with the terrority of playing in NY. However to categorically deny that no one has been the victim of that pressure, IMO is not seeing the big picture.
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  25. #50
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    Re: Greinke, mental illness, and the Yankees

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Is my info off? I thought I remembered reading something about him reaching out to the Yankees at one point. I know his price doesn't work at all right now but I am not going to protest due to his anxiety issues. If he hasn't fell victim to it now at this stage in his career I'm going to assume it's under control and he can handle it.
    No, you're not off. If memory serves, he initially indicated he did not want to pitch in NY years ago. More recently, he changed gears on that.

    He has fallen victim to his disorder in the past, but as JL indicates he's been receiving successful treatment for quite some time now.

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