Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

[awy]

this just in, mark teixeira has higher career value than jim rice.

mark is a hall of famer

[YankeeFan1421]

How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?

Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.

[JL25and3]

Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.

It's completely baffling to me why you keep doubling down on this argument as if it somehow strengthened Rice's case.

[longtimeyankeefan]

Personally, I think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer - and that opinion is based on watching him and fearing his presence at the plate in a big situation.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

let's be real. If Jim Rice was a jovial and plump lookin white guy with the same numbers, he wouldn't have gained this "fearsome" reputation. or if he looked like tim salmon. or like bobby abreu

[BennyTheJetRodriguez]

Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.

Albert Belle is better... Interesting comp actually. Just off the top of my head.

[Chacon]

Personally, I think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer - and that opinion is based on watching him and fearing his presence at the plate in a big situation.

Posts like this are why I wish Mike Schur kept FireJoeMorgan.com around

[kan_t]

Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.

Interesting question. I come up with (in no particular order):

Ted Williams
Stan Musial
Barry Bonds
Ricky Henderson
Carl Yastrzemski
Goose Goslin
Fred Clarke
Manny Ramirez
Al Simmons
Ed Delahanty
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Willie Stargell
Billy Williams
Joe Medwick
Tim Raines
Albert Belle
Zack Wheat
Sherry Magee

I am comfortable to rank the above 18 over Rice. Then I have George Foster, Roy White, Minnie Minoso, etc who are comparable to Rice.

[kan_t]

For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Kevin Brown
Tom Glavine

[BennyTheJetRodriguez]

For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Kevin Brown
Tom Glavine

and that's not even counting people still active or relievers. Cone and Oswalt should be on that list too. Maybe even Guidry.

[awy]

roger clemens, pedro, maddux, unit are among top 10 pitchers all time. i don't see them setting a fair standard.

guys like brown are hugely underrated, and i would argue groundball guys relies on defense and pettitte, though not a groundballer, had terribad defense. the difference is quite large.


i'll say this. had pettitte pitched in the national league with a good defense behind him, he'd have a much stronger case.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Posts like this are why I wish Mike Schur kept FireJoeMorgan.com around

That was such a great site.

[MTYankee23]

Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.

Through 2088 games.

Rice
9058 PA, 382 HR, 373 2B, 79 3B, .352 OBP, .502 SLG, 4129 TB, 670 BB, 315 GIDP, 77 IBB
Evans
8443 PA, 325 HR, 398 2B, 59 3B, .368 OBP, .478 SLG, 3441 TB, 1095 BB, 170 GIDP, 49 IBB

Forget Rickey Henderson, Rice didn't compare favorably with a guy in his own OF who never got more than 11% of the HOF vote. A guy that played a more demanding defensive position no less, and played it quite well. Contrast that with Rice who was a complete butcher in LF. In no way is he a clear HOF. It needs to be constantly repeated. OBP is much, much more important than SLG.

[kan_t]

Top 5 OPS+ seasons

Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.

[35Knucklecurve]

For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Mike Mussina
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Kevin Brown
Tom Glavine

I agree with that list without a doubt. Something that gets overlooked at times is that Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz had the "luxury" of being part of the same rotation for a long time - one of most productive combos in MLB. It makes a difference IMO, if you know that there are guys with whom you can share the burden and also feed off of each other in a competitve manner - nobody wants to be the one who turns in a bad start. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Smoltz since he was a starter and a reliever.

[YankeeFan1421]

Through 2088 games.

Rice
9058 PA, 382 HR, 373 2B, 79 3B, .352 OBP, .502 SLG, 4129 TB, 670 BB, 315 GIDP, 77 IBB
Evans
8443 PA, 325 HR, 398 2B, 59 3B, .368 OBP, .478 SLG, 3441 TB, 1095 BB, 170 GIDP, 49 IBB

Forget Rickey Henderson, Rice didn't compare favorably with a guy in his own OF who never got more than 11% of the HOF vote. A guy that played a more demanding defensive position no less, and played it quite well. Contrast that with Rice who was a complete butcher in LF. In no way is he a clear HOF. It needs to be constantly repeated. OBP is much, much more important than SLG.

I've said in this thread that Evans should be in the Hall of Fame, or at the very least gotten a lot more consideration.

Never really understood the complete knock on Rice as a left fielder...later in his career, the 'buzz' was that he was a much improved LFer. My memories of most of his career are hazy, admittedly, but it's hard for any left fielder at Fenway to be considered a 'butcher', in my view.

For a decade, Rice led all of baseball in slugging percentage, OPS, runs created, total bases and extra base hits. Won three home run titles, won one MVP and finished MVP Top 5 a total of 6 times (compared to one and three times for Henderson).

I know this is the Andy Pettitte HOF thread and many are annoyed that I think Rice should be in, so I'll stop now, but I do think the guy was a clear HOF'er.

[awy]

given the way he grounded into double plays and general slowness it's not surprising to see numbers like -8.8 wins defense for his career.

he is also unclutch by 7 wins for his career, if you care about that. probably because of all the gidps


look at baseball reference stats that are park adjusted.

[AJW]

No. He is not.

[JL25and3]

Top 5 OPS+ seasons

Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.

Murphy is an odd case. Very strange career.

[Hitman23]

Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.

I've been on your side of debates like this before man. Sometimes you just gotta let it go. It's frustrating when a little comment blows up like that.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

Top 5 OPS+ seasons

Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.

homeboy, stop using OPS+