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  1. #176

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    this just in, mark teixeira has higher career value than jim rice.

    mark is a hall of famer
    always reasonable

  2. #177

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?
    Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

    Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

    JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
    RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

    I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

    But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.

  3. #178
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

    Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

    JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
    RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

    I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

    But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.
    It's completely baffling to me why you keep doubling down on this argument as if it somehow strengthened Rice's case.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  4. #179
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Personally, I think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer - and that opinion is based on watching him and fearing his presence at the plate in a big situation.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  5. #180

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    let's be real. If Jim Rice was a jovial and plump lookin white guy with the same numbers, he wouldn't have gained this "fearsome" reputation. or if he looked like tim salmon. or like bobby abreu
    like delv, but better

  6. #181

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

    Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

    That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.
    Albert Belle is better... Interesting comp actually. Just off the top of my head.

  7. #182

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    Personally, I think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer - and that opinion is based on watching him and fearing his presence at the plate in a big situation.
    Posts like this are why I wish Mike Schur kept FireJoeMorgan.com around
    “He's a clown. Guy says he's from the 209, what the ................ is that?

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  8. #183
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

    Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

    That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.
    Interesting question. I come up with (in no particular order):

    Ted Williams
    Stan Musial
    Barry Bonds
    Ricky Henderson
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Goose Goslin
    Fred Clarke
    Manny Ramirez
    Al Simmons
    Ed Delahanty
    Shoeless Joe Jackson
    Willie Stargell
    Billy Williams
    Joe Medwick
    Tim Raines
    Albert Belle
    Zack Wheat
    Sherry Magee

    I am comfortable to rank the above 18 over Rice. Then I have George Foster, Roy White, Minnie Minoso, etc who are comparable to Rice.

  9. #184
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Pedro Martinez
    Mike Mussina
    John Smoltz
    Curt Schilling
    Kevin Brown
    Tom Glavine

  10. #185

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Pedro Martinez
    Mike Mussina
    John Smoltz
    Curt Schilling
    Kevin Brown
    Tom Glavine
    and that's not even counting people still active or relievers. Cone and Oswalt should be on that list too. Maybe even Guidry.

  11. #186

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    roger clemens, pedro, maddux, unit are among top 10 pitchers all time. i don't see them setting a fair standard.

    guys like brown are hugely underrated, and i would argue groundball guys relies on defense and pettitte, though not a groundballer, had terribad defense. the difference is quite large.


    i'll say this. had pettitte pitched in the national league with a good defense behind him, he'd have a much stronger case.
    always reasonable

  12. #187

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chacon View Post
    Posts like this are why I wish Mike Schur kept FireJoeMorgan.com around
    That was such a great site.

  13. #188

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

    Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

    JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
    RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

    I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

    But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.
    Through 2088 games.

    Rice
    9058 PA, 382 HR, 373 2B, 79 3B, .352 OBP, .502 SLG, 4129 TB, 670 BB, 315 GIDP, 77 IBB
    Evans
    8443 PA, 325 HR, 398 2B, 59 3B, .368 OBP, .478 SLG, 3441 TB, 1095 BB, 170 GIDP, 49 IBB

    Forget Rickey Henderson, Rice didn't compare favorably with a guy in his own OF who never got more than 11% of the HOF vote. A guy that played a more demanding defensive position no less, and played it quite well. Contrast that with Rice who was a complete butcher in LF. In no way is he a clear HOF. It needs to be constantly repeated. OBP is much, much more important than SLG.

  14. #189
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Top 5 OPS+ seasons

    Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
    Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
    Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
    George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
    Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

    PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.

  15. #190
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    For starting pitchers who are not in the Hall, I would comfortably rank the below over Pettitte (in no particular order):

    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Randy Johnson
    Pedro Martinez
    Mike Mussina
    John Smoltz
    Curt Schilling
    Kevin Brown
    Tom Glavine
    I agree with that list without a doubt. Something that gets overlooked at times is that Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz had the "luxury" of being part of the same rotation for a long time - one of most productive combos in MLB. It makes a difference IMO, if you know that there are guys with whom you can share the burden and also feed off of each other in a competitve manner - nobody wants to be the one who turns in a bad start. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Smoltz since he was a starter and a reliever.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  16. #191

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by MTYankee23 View Post
    Through 2088 games.

    Rice
    9058 PA, 382 HR, 373 2B, 79 3B, .352 OBP, .502 SLG, 4129 TB, 670 BB, 315 GIDP, 77 IBB
    Evans
    8443 PA, 325 HR, 398 2B, 59 3B, .368 OBP, .478 SLG, 3441 TB, 1095 BB, 170 GIDP, 49 IBB

    Forget Rickey Henderson, Rice didn't compare favorably with a guy in his own OF who never got more than 11% of the HOF vote. A guy that played a more demanding defensive position no less, and played it quite well. Contrast that with Rice who was a complete butcher in LF. In no way is he a clear HOF. It needs to be constantly repeated. OBP is much, much more important than SLG.
    I've said in this thread that Evans should be in the Hall of Fame, or at the very least gotten a lot more consideration.

    Never really understood the complete knock on Rice as a left fielder...later in his career, the 'buzz' was that he was a much improved LFer. My memories of most of his career are hazy, admittedly, but it's hard for any left fielder at Fenway to be considered a 'butcher', in my view.

    For a decade, Rice led all of baseball in slugging percentage, OPS, runs created, total bases and extra base hits. Won three home run titles, won one MVP and finished MVP Top 5 a total of 6 times (compared to one and three times for Henderson).

    I know this is the Andy Pettitte HOF thread and many are annoyed that I think Rice should be in, so I'll stop now, but I do think the guy was a clear HOF'er.

  17. #192

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    given the way he grounded into double plays and general slowness it's not surprising to see numbers like -8.8 wins defense for his career.

    he is also unclutch by 7 wins for his career, if you care about that. probably because of all the gidps


    look at baseball reference stats that are park adjusted.
    always reasonable

  18. #193
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    No. He is not.

  19. #194
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Top 5 OPS+ seasons

    Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
    Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
    Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
    George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
    Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

    PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.
    Murphy is an odd case. Very strange career.

  20. #195
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Because in an off-handed comment I said Rice to me was a no-brainer Hall of Famer given his dominance in 1978 in particular and then 5 or so other years. i pointed out that his OPS+ was about the same as Henderson's. I also said, repeatedly, that Rice was obviously not as good overall as Henderson and that 'nobody on the planet' would say he was.

    Many said that Henderson's career numbers were dragged down as he got older and hung on...and that's true. It's interesting though. Rice played 2089 games across a 16 year career. If we compare Rice to Henderson at virtually the same exact point (through 2080 games):

    JR: 382 hr's, 373 doubles, 79 triples, .352 obp, .502 slg, 4129 TB
    RH: 226 hr's, 364 doubles, 56 triples, .406 obp, .440 slg, 3370 TB

    I'll repeat, again, that just because Rice had 156 more home runs, 9 more doubles, 23 more triples, 62 points higher slugging and 759 more total bases during their first 2080 games, he's not as good as Henderson. through this period, Henderson's ops+ was 138 to Rice's 128 and Henderson stole 1117 bases at an 80% rate.

    But the fact that Rice can compare favorably to Henderson in several key areas across their first 15 or 16 seasons supports my view, I think, that he's a clear HOF'er.
    I've been on your side of debates like this before man. Sometimes you just gotta let it go. It's frustrating when a little comment blows up like that.
    Thank you, 2013-2014 New York Rangers for a great season!

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  21. #196

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Top 5 OPS+ seasons

    Dwight Evans: 163, 157, 149, 147, 136
    Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 137
    Dave Parker: 166, 149, 149, 145, 140
    George Foster: 165, 155, 151, 150, 150
    Dale Murphy: 157, 152, 149, 149, 142

    PS: I think Murphy should be a HOFer.
    homeboy, stop using OPS+
    like delv, but better

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