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  1. #151
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Again, you're ignoring the fact that both Winfield and Henderson had very long tail ends to their careers, where Rice had none. That alone makes a comparison based on a career average irrelevant.
    Or in other words OPS+ through age 36
    Rice 128
    Winfield 135
    Henderson 138

    A few other OF with OPS+ "close to Rice"
    Tim Salmon 128
    Ryan Klesco 128
    Mosie Alou 128
    Jim Wynn 129
    Fred Lynn 129
    Bobby Bonds 129
    Bobby Abreu 129

    I thought Rice was a bordeline candidate. I don't think he's the worst induction ever but I did think he should have been in the hall of very good rather than the hall of fame.
    Baseball is life;
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  2. #152

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Henderson was better on OBP by a long shot (50 points) for his career than Rice. Rice was better in slg % by an even wider margin (80 points) than Henderson.
    50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

    this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

    use wRC+ instead
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF
    like delv, but better

  3. #153

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

    this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

    use wRC+ instead
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF
    EvilEmpireDC: Fans bitch about anything lol

  4. #154

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Or in other words OPS+ through age 36
    Rice 128
    Winfield 135
    Henderson 138

    A few other OF with OPS+ "close to Rice"
    Tim Salmon 128
    Ryan Klesco 128
    Mosie Alou 128
    Jim Wynn 129
    Fred Lynn 129
    Bobby Bonds 129
    Bobby Abreu 129

    I thought Rice was a bordeline candidate. I don't think he's the worst induction ever but I did think he should have been in the hall of very good rather than the hall of fame.
    I think he should have been in the hall of pretty good, not very good. I don't think that anyone would even consider guys like Alou and Klesko for the Hall.

  5. #155

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

    this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

    use wRC+ instead
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF
    Okay...so, Henderson's is 132 vs Rice's 128.

  6. #156

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    jim rice the terribad defender at a not so hard position with a short peak compared to rickey ................ing henderson who put up 2 careers each better than rice?

    read that again. split rickey henderson in half and each half is better than rice
    always reasonable

  7. #157
    NYYF MVP

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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Is this argument really taking place?

  8. #158
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Okay...so, Henderson's is 132 vs Rice's 128.
    Once again, ignoring the effect of latter years of Henderson's career. Consider that 120 wRC+ is excellent offense. Henderson had 17 such seasons. Rice had 9. Henderson had 8 seasons above 140. Rice had 4. Henderson had a peak of a peak wRC+ of 190. Rice's peak was 162.

    You made a terrible comp. Let it go man.

  9. #159

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Once again, ignoring the effect of latter years of Henderson's career. Consider that 120 wRC+ is excellent offense. Henderson had 17 such seasons. Rice had 9. Henderson had 8 seasons above 140. Rice had 4. Henderson had a peak of a peak wRC+ of 190. Rice's peak was 162.

    You made a terrible comp. Let it go man.
    No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

    Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

    To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

    I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.

  10. #160
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view
    Then just make that case for Rice in isolation, instead of pretending that he benefits by comparison with Rickey.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  11. #161

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

    Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

    To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

    I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.
    Dwight Evans actually had 5, was a better defender, and by all accounts, a much nicer guy (which matters when you consider it's writers doing the voting). Never got close to the HOF. 4 seasons above 140+ doesn't make his case for the HOF at all.

    Klesko had 3.
    Salmon had 3.
    Alou had 4.
    Abreu had 4.
    Bobby Bonds had 3.
    Fred Lynn had 3.

    None of these guys sniffed or will sniff the HOF, and that's the group Rice belongs in.

    Edit: And the arbitrary cutoff of 140 helps Rice a huge amount in this case. If you move it to 135 or 145....

    Rice 135 (4 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best year 162
    Evans 135 (6 seasons) 145 (4 seasons) Best year 168
    Klesko 135 (4 seasons) 145 (2 seasons) Best year 156
    Alou 135 (5 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best Year 158

  12. #162

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by MTYankee23 View Post
    Dwight Evans actually had 5, was a better defender, and by all accounts, a much nicer guy (which matters when you consider it's writers doing the voting). Never got close to the HOF. 4 seasons above 140+ doesn't make his case for the HOF at all.

    Klesko had 3.
    Salmon had 3.
    Alou had 4.
    Abreu had 4.
    Bobby Bonds had 3.
    Fred Lynn had 3.

    None of these guys sniffed or will sniff the HOF, and that's the group Rice belongs in.

    Edit: And the arbitrary cutoff of 140 helps Rice a huge amount in this case. If you move it to 135 or 145....

    Rice 135 (4 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best year 162
    Evans 135 (6 seasons) 145 (4 seasons) Best year 168
    Klesko 135 (4 seasons) 145 (2 seasons) Best year 156
    Alou 135 (5 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best Year 158
    This is spot on. Out of curiosity, I just checked out the stats for Abreu and Rice side by side - Abreu in my opinion has actually had the better career. Rice's best seasons are better than Abreu's, but Abreu has been more consistent. And in my opinion, neither belongs anywhere near the Hall.

  13. #163

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    rice's best years are very short, and not that peaky
    always reasonable

  14. #164

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by surge511 View Post
    This is spot on. Out of curiosity, I just checked out the stats for Abreu and Rice side by side - Abreu in my opinion has actually had the better career. Rice's best seasons are better than Abreu's, but Abreu has been more consistent. And in my opinion, neither belongs anywhere near the Hall.
    The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"
    “He's a clown. Guy says he's from the 209, what the ................ is that?

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  15. #165

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chacon View Post
    The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"
    It's actually Fear+, because it's apparently league adjusted. As in, "the most feared hitter of his era."
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  16. #166
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

    Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

    To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

    I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.
    JL25and3 pretty much summed it up. And I have no idea how stating he had half as many 140 wRC+ seasons as a true HOF, especially when I also included additional views at higher levels, adds to your case.

  17. #167
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chacon View Post
    The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"
    Rice made it because of 1978, and Abreu never had as dominant a season. Also, players with balanced skills - good average, power, speed, walks - tend not to fare as well as players with some outstanding skill. Abreu never led the league or compiled big numbers, he just did everything well. Those are the players who tend to be undervalued later.

  18. #168
    NYYF Legend


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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Mr. Rice makes it to the Hall of Fame.
    However, the "Curse", was too hard for him to overcome.

  19. #169

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Rickey had 11 straight seasons with a fWAR above 5. 13 total.

    Rice had 3 straight seasons with a fWAR above 5. 5 total.


    No matter what you think of WAR, that's a slaughter.

    *piles on*
    like delv, but better

  20. #170
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?
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  21. #171

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Seriously. Rickey is one of the best 15ish players ever. Rice is, what, maybe top 20 in LF alone?

  22. #172
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?
    Wondering the same thing.......I had to double check to make sure I was in the Pettitte HOF thread.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  23. #173

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooligan Tavarez View Post
    Seriously. Rickey is one of the best 15ish players ever. Rice is, what, maybe top 20 in LF alone?
    Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

    Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

    That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.

  24. #174
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

    Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

    That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.
    Joe Medwick. For shortened careers, Lefty O'Doul and Ralph Kiner.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  25. #175

    Re: Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

    I wouldn't be surprised if Kiner was above Rice in career value, shortened career or no. In the early part of Kiner's career, he was one of the very best hitters in the league, winning seven straight home run crowns (some by 10+) while being an elite on-base hitter. Kiner's peak was definitely more impressive than Rice's.

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