Is Pettitte a first ballot Hall of Famer?

[Yankee Tripper]

Again, you're ignoring the fact that both Winfield and Henderson had very long tail ends to their careers, where Rice had none. That alone makes a comparison based on a career average irrelevant.

Or in other words OPS+ through age 36
Rice 128
Winfield 135
Henderson 138

A few other OF with OPS+ "close to Rice"
Tim Salmon 128
Ryan Klesco 128
Mosie Alou 128
Jim Wynn 129
Fred Lynn 129
Bobby Bonds 129
Bobby Abreu 129

I thought Rice was a bordeline candidate. I don't think he's the worst induction ever but I did think he should have been in the hall of very good rather than the hall of fame.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

Henderson was better on OBP by a long shot (50 points) for his career than Rice. Rice was better in slg % by an even wider margin (80 points) than Henderson.

50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

use wRC+ instead
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF

[snapple]

50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

use wRC+ instead
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF

[RenoHightower]

Or in other words OPS+ through age 36
Rice 128
Winfield 135
Henderson 138

A few other OF with OPS+ "close to Rice"
Tim Salmon 128
Ryan Klesco 128
Mosie Alou 128
Jim Wynn 129
Fred Lynn 129
Bobby Bonds 129
Bobby Abreu 129

I thought Rice was a bordeline candidate. I don't think he's the worst induction ever but I did think he should have been in the hall of very good rather than the hall of fame.

I think he should have been in the hall of pretty good, not very good. I don't think that anyone would even consider guys like Alou and Klesko for the Hall.

[YankeeFan1421]

50 points of OBP is WAAAY more than 80 points of slugging. OBP is a scale out of 1.000. SLG is out of 4.000.

this is [one reason] why OPS+ is really flawed.

use wRC+ instead
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...94&position=OF
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...position=DH/OF

Okay...so, Henderson's is 132 vs Rice's 128.

[awy]

jim rice the terribad defender at a not so hard position with a short peak compared to rickey ................ing henderson who put up 2 careers each better than rice?

read that again. split rickey henderson in half and each half is better than rice

[The Comic Book Guy]

Is this argument really taking place?

[False1]

Okay...so, Henderson's is 132 vs Rice's 128.

Once again, ignoring the effect of latter years of Henderson's career. Consider that 120 wRC+ is excellent offense. Henderson had 17 such seasons. Rice had 9. Henderson had 8 seasons above 140. Rice had 4. Henderson had a peak of a peak wRC+ of 190. Rice's peak was 162.

You made a terrible comp. Let it go man.

[YankeeFan1421]

Once again, ignoring the effect of latter years of Henderson's career. Consider that 120 wRC+ is excellent offense. Henderson had 17 such seasons. Rice had 9. Henderson had 8 seasons above 140. Rice had 4. Henderson had a peak of a peak wRC+ of 190. Rice's peak was 162.

You made a terrible comp. Let it go man.

No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.

[JL25and3]

Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view

Then just make that case for Rice in isolation, instead of pretending that he benefits by comparison with Rickey.

[MTYankee23]

No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.

Dwight Evans actually had 5, was a better defender, and by all accounts, a much nicer guy (which matters when you consider it's writers doing the voting). Never got close to the HOF. 4 seasons above 140+ doesn't make his case for the HOF at all.

Klesko had 3.
Salmon had 3.
Alou had 4.
Abreu had 4.
Bobby Bonds had 3.
Fred Lynn had 3.

None of these guys sniffed or will sniff the HOF, and that's the group Rice belongs in.

Edit: And the arbitrary cutoff of 140 helps Rice a huge amount in this case. If you move it to 135 or 145....

Rice 135 (4 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best year 162
Evans 135 (6 seasons) 145 (4 seasons) Best year 168
Klesko 135 (4 seasons) 145 (2 seasons) Best year 156
Alou 135 (5 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best Year 158

[surge511]

Dwight Evans actually had 5, was a better defender, and by all accounts, a much nicer guy (which matters when you consider it's writers doing the voting). Never got close to the HOF. 4 seasons above 140+ doesn't make his case for the HOF at all.

Klesko had 3.
Salmon had 3.
Alou had 4.
Abreu had 4.
Bobby Bonds had 3.
Fred Lynn had 3.

None of these guys sniffed or will sniff the HOF, and that's the group Rice belongs in.

Edit: And the arbitrary cutoff of 140 helps Rice a huge amount in this case. If you move it to 135 or 145....

Rice 135 (4 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best year 162
Evans 135 (6 seasons) 145 (4 seasons) Best year 168
Klesko 135 (4 seasons) 145 (2 seasons) Best year 156
Alou 135 (5 seasons) 145 (3 seasons) Best Year 158

This is spot on. Out of curiosity, I just checked out the stats for Abreu and Rice side by side - Abreu in my opinion has actually had the better career. Rice's best seasons are better than Abreu's, but Abreu has been more consistent. And in my opinion, neither belongs anywhere near the Hall.

[awy]

rice's best years are very short, and not that peaky

[Chacon]

This is spot on. Out of curiosity, I just checked out the stats for Abreu and Rice side by side - Abreu in my opinion has actually had the better career. Rice's best seasons are better than Abreu's, but Abreu has been more consistent. And in my opinion, neither belongs anywhere near the Hall.

The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"

[sweet_lou_14]

The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"

It's actually Fear+, because it's apparently league adjusted. As in, "the most feared hitter of his era."

[False1]

No, I didn't. I said due to Henderson's stolen bases and endurance/longevity, Rice clearly was not as good as Henderson. The words I used were that nobody on the planet would argue that they are on the same level of player.

Most of what I said centered around Rice himself and his best years...which in and of themselves were enough to warrant the HOF in my view.

To be fair, though, you actually add to my case by pointing out that Henderson had 8 seasons above 140 and Rice had 4.

I would have guessed that there was a bigger difference than that.

JL25and3 pretty much summed it up. And I have no idea how stating he had half as many 140 wRC+ seasons as a true HOF, especially when I also included additional views at higher levels, adds to your case.

[JL25and3]

The reason Rice went into the Hall and Abreu will get nowhere near it is some BS stat called "fear"

Rice made it because of 1978, and Abreu never had as dominant a season. Also, players with balanced skills - good average, power, speed, walks - tend not to fare as well as players with some outstanding skill. Abreu never led the league or compiled big numbers, he just did everything well. Those are the players who tend to be undervalued later.

[mr.roy]

Mr. Rice makes it to the Hall of Fame.
However, the "Curse", was too hard for him to overcome.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

Rickey had 11 straight seasons with a fWAR above 5. 13 total.

Rice had 3 straight seasons with a fWAR above 5. 5 total.


No matter what you think of WAR, that's a slaughter.

*piles on*

[Hitman23]

How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?

[Hooligan Tavarez]

Seriously. Rickey is one of the best 15ish players ever. Rice is, what, maybe top 20 in LF alone?

[35Knucklecurve]

How exactly did a Rice vs Henderson debate happen?

Wondering the same thing.......I had to double check to make sure I was in the Pettitte HOF thread.

[RenoHightower]

Seriously. Rickey is one of the best 15ish players ever. Rice is, what, maybe top 20 in LF alone?

Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.

[JL25and3]

Ah, here's a good one. Can I name 20 LF better than Rice?

Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yaz, Raines, Manny, Al Simmons, Shoeless Joe, Willie Stargell, Goslin, Billy Williams...

That's all that comes to mind right now. I'll look at PI later to see what they come up with.

Joe Medwick. For shortened careers, Lefty O'Doul and Ralph Kiner.

[RenoHightower]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kiner was above Rice in career value, shortened career or no. In the early part of Kiner's career, he was one of the very best hitters in the league, winning seven straight home run crowns (some by 10+) while being an elite on-base hitter. Kiner's peak was definitely more impressive than Rice's.