N.Y. land of whine, cheese

[Ram Man]

The pretty much sums it up:

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...121029888/1004

And get this: Yahoo! Sports revealed the Yankees were using the old “Seinfeld” Broadway seat-filler scheme during the ALCS — moving fans from the upper deck to fill seats down the third-base line and in the left-field corner that were conspicuously empty for the TBS cameras. That's an abject disgrace.

The Yankees' average regular season attendance this year of 43,733 was their lowest since 2003 — and down more than 2,700 per game from just two years ago. The Wall Street Journal reported average attendance for the playoff games was the lowest the team has had in the postseason since 1932.

Overpriced ballplayers. Overpriced seats. Overpriced concessions and merchandise. It was very interesting to see that Yankees fans — finally — seem to be pushing back and saying enough is enough.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

The pretty much sums it up:

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...121029888/1004

the "ballplayers" (payroll) is not the issue. we've had a salary that high for a while now. also, there's little correlation btwn that and ticket cost. it's just a ticket cost thing.

[JL25and3]

The pretty much sums it up:

http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs...121029888/1004

A number of fans, in the "Is it still fun..." thread, have said that going to games in the new Stadium is just not as enjoyable.

[YankeeFan1421]

A number of fans, in the "Is it still fun..." thread, have said that going to games in the new Stadium is just not as enjoyable.

Yeah, I scratch my head when people like John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman and Mike Francesa speak of the existing yankee stadium in the same context as the old one. It's not the same place, it's not the same type of structure, it's not the same fan base, even. Its still called 'Yankee Stadium' and its decorations are reminiscent of YS1 and the remodeled one, but it's not Yankee Stadium in the sense of what many ascribed to the old place.

I find nothing special about the new place. Luxurious, amenity filled and modern, yes. But the same can be said for ten or fifteen or twenty of arenas built around the country over the past ten or so years. The old place was a draw for people. Whether that was based on rationale or good reason is subject to debate, but undeniably part of the Yankees attendance success was the stadium itself.

The new one was a draw for a while too, as all new stadiums are, but that wears off eventually and now it's just another new stadium.

[YankeePride1967]

I am probably in the minority but I enjoy going to the new Stadium. I like having the choice of food to be more than a soggy hot dog and a stale pretzel and for those that say "well what about the game?" eating and watching a game don't have to be an either/or choice. I get there when the gates open. Walk around the stadium, maybe go to the museum or monument park, grab the food I'll need for the day (usually a sandwich of some kind and either a pretzel or some popcorn for during and a drink) and I am in my seat normally a half hour to an hour before first pitch, sometimes I catch some BP. I also like having seats that you can sit in where your knees aren't pressed into your chest as the old place and like being able to more around the wider concourses.

Now my problem with the stadium has nothing to do with the stadium itself, it has to do with the pricing of it. I sat in the Legends seats for the first and only time this year. I got a $800 seat on Stubhub for $200 (and I had to even think about that expenditure). You have to be a rich person to be able afford to sit anywhere on the first level. They priced it so that the real fans are now far away from the action, if they even bother to show up. If they want to get the feel back, even partially, of the old place they have to totally revamp the pricing structure substantially downward. Otherwise, this year will only be a start of the decline in attendance.

[fredgmuggs]

When I saw the thread title with whine and cheese I just assumed montrealer was the originator of the thread.

Meh, I stopped going to Yankee Stadium a long time ago. The Yankee stadium experience changed for me long before they moved across the street in the new ballpark. I imagine it's even worse there.

[Bozidar]

I enjoyed going to the new YS, but... it was a work function, and no one was getting all that excited about the game. We fit right in, spending most of the game talking to each other about work, not the game.

[YankeeFan1421]

I enjoyed going to the new YS, but... it was a work function, and no one was getting all that excited about the game. We fit right in, spending most of the game talking to each other about work, not the game.

Yeah, and the fact that it's so dependent on corporate support now is one of the reasons for the lack of playoff demand. It's difficult to plan work and client outings around games that you don't know when or if they'll even be played.

The World Series is big enough to be able to offer to a customer or colleague, and there is a definite start time known weeks in advance (which will either be playe at that time or not). But Friday afternoon at 5:00PM for an ALDS is not something that most people who can afford to go to the game to begin with can plan around all that easily. If you work in midtown or out in the 'burbs somewhere, you have to decide the day of the game to take basically a half a day. Obviously, some do it, but it's tough to plan for that.

[HerbieLee20]

Don't think anything's the way it used to be, whether the Stadium, workplace, or something as simple as shopping.

Everyone is playing to the "new demographic"/culture -- people with '70 Plasma Tvs with a gazillion channels, and TVs in their cars. People who need to be entertained/stimulated chronically and these people tend to have their faces buried in their cellphones every waking second, and are too "busy" to be patient with the pace of a baseball game anyways. So they roam around the Stadium and spend money instead. Who knows, 30 years ago, they probably had a shot at being real fans, appreciating everything about the game.

It's the world we live in now, and those of us stuck in the 20th Century (home PC being exception for me as it replaces TV) are in culture-shock, JMHO.

Just a theory: When Hank (or Hal, forget which) declared World Series C'ship or failure, he was appealing to the new demographic, and the ones with more disposable $$$. People expect everything yesterday. No time for waiting. We want it, everything, NOW!! Just provide a comfortable seat in which they can play on their cell phones.

[Ram Man]

It is easy to get nostalgic about the old stadium and forget the negatives about it, but I don't think there is any way to deny that the construction of the new stadium forever diminished the home field advantage (open concourses, upper deck set back farther from the field, etc.). When you also consider that the many of the most vocal and loyal fans have been effectively priced out the home field advantage has been further reduced.

I'm sure the Yankees organization was not and is not concerned as much about home field advantage, after all we are talking about professional ballplayers, but when they sacrificed the HFA and are now seeing that their "corporate," revenue-maximizing approach is also failing, they aren't left with very much to go on.

I've long maintained that the Yankees would have been far, far better off, pricing tickets, concessions, souvenirs, etc. such that it would create an artificial demand whereby no one would have dared give up their season tickets for fear that they would never get them back. Despite the physical changes that reduced the HFA, they could have still had a stadium full of vocal, loyal fans all season (and especially in the post-season) but now that is gone and I'm not sure they will be able to get it back for at least a generation. That is, until there is a generation of fans that don't remember OYS.

[BronxYanks45]

I am probably in the minority but I enjoy going to the new Stadium. I like having the choice of food to be more than a soggy hot dog and a stale pretzel and for those that say "well what about the game?" eating and watching a game don't have to be an either/or choice. I get there when the gates open. Walk around the stadium, maybe go to the museum or monument park, grab the food I'll need for the day (usually a sandwich of some kind and either a pretzel or some popcorn for during and a drink) and I am in my seat normally a half hour to an hour before first pitch, sometimes I catch some BP. I also like having seats that you can sit in where your knees aren't pressed into your chest as the old place and like being able to more around the wider concourses.

totally agree, I really like the new stadium

[yankees2010]

totally agree, I really like the new stadium

Everyone I know says the same thing The new Stadium is great, the concourses are great, the food and bars are amazing. Then they tell a story about..."But in the old Stadium, we had so much fun..one night it was so crazy...."

[35Knucklecurve]

Walking into the new YS the first time felt as though I was going shopping at an upscale mall. It wasn't a completely negative experience, but it definitely didn't feel "right", for lack of a better word. I haven't been to nearly as many games at either stadium as most of you here, so it probably was an even bigger difference. They went for the "wow factor" and never thought much about what was going to happen when the "wow" wore off. Between the money it takes for a family of 4 to attend a game, the product on the field and the number of suits sitting in the high rent district, the average loyal, long-time fans have been turned off and probably feel taken for granted and unappreciated. Yes, it's nice to have such a great variety of food and more room to stretch your legs, but I'd glady exchange it for those old ghosts, fans who actually watch the game in front of them instead of checking the stock market on the latest electronic gadget and last but not least, a team which has a pulse when it counts the most.

I saw hundreds of games at Connie Mack Stadium and my first trip to Veteran's Stadium had that same feel - sterlized, concrete everywhere you turned and the atmosphere was gone. That was over 40 years ago - all the bells and whistles you see now weren't in existence, but it didn't matter. It just wasn't the same.

[JL25and3]

Walking into the new YS the first time felt as though I was going shopping at an upscale mall. It wasn't a completely negative experience, but it definitely didn't feel "right", for lack of a better word. I haven't been to nearly as many games at either stadium as most of you here, so it probably was an even bigger difference. They went for the "wow factor" and never thought much about what was going to happen when the "wow" wore off. Between the money it takes for a family of 4 to attend a game, the product on the field and the number of suits sitting in the high rent district, the average loyal, long-time fans have been turned off and probably feel taken for granted and unappreciated. Yes, it's nice to have such a great variety of food and more room to stretch your legs, but I'd glady exchange it for those old ghosts, fans who actually watch the game in front of them instead of checking the stock market on the latest electronic gadget and last but not least, a team which has a pulse when it counts the most.

I saw hundreds of games at Connie Mack Stadium and my first trip to Veteran's Stadium had that same feel - sterlized, concrete everywhere you turned and the atmosphere was gone. That was over 40 years ago - all the bells and whistles you see now weren't in existence, but it didn't matter. It just wasn't the same.

I'm not a huge fan of the new Yankee Stadium - there's nothing that makes it feel distinctive, it's just a place where the Yankees happen to play - but please, let's not compare it with Veteran's Stadium. That place was awful.

[BronxBombers92]

If you don't like the atmosphere, do your part to change it. Stand up, cheer, get your section going! (no wave please). NYS can get just as loud as the old one ever did. Sitting down complaining about the atmosphere won't do anything to fix the problem.

If prices were lowered, and Securitas hired people that aren't ***holes who try to throw you out for saying "Detroit Sucks!", we'd be a good way to getting that "atmosphere" back.

Oh yeah, and getting players that don't strikeout/flyout or hit an inning ending DP with the bases loaded multiple times during the game would probably be a good move as well.

[gold23]

There's nothing exciting about the new park, IMO. It's not the food- I like the new food better than old YS, but to be honest outside of Lobel's (and talk about overpriced!) I think they whiffed big time there. They sold out to very typical and very basic third parties, so while there are better and more options, it's run of the mill stuff with no character.

Forget the noise and the atmosphere, as I agree with everything that's been said. It's not the same, for millions of reasons. But I, for one, think they really messed up on the design. It's a boring, huge structure. It's the only new ballpark where there are major backups in the concourse from overcrowding (absolutely inexcusable), the bathrooms are better but still not well laid out, etc. I feel like I'm in a fancy chain hotel.

[Ram Man]

The architecture of NYS makes it such that it will never be as loud as OYS. The open concourses and the upper decks being set back from the field are the major contributors. That said, I hated the "tunnel effect" of sitting too far under an overhanging upper deck. I want to be able to see fly balls all the way to the outfielder. From that standpoint, NYS is a major improvement.

Another factor of the open concourses is that you're pretty much guaranteed that a certain percentage of people will not be in their seats during the game, no matter how important the game. This percentage is much greater than at OYS where you couldn't see the field from the concourses.

[GordonGecko]

The architecture of NYS makes it such that it will never be as loud as OYS. The open concourses and the upper decks being set back from the field are the major contributors. That said, I hated the "tunnel effect" of sitting too far under an overhanging upper deck. I want to be able to see fly balls all the way to the outfielder. From that standpoint, NYS is a major improvement.

Another factor of the open concourses is that you're pretty much guaranteed that a certain percentage of people will not be in their seats during the game, no matter how important the game. This percentage is much greater than at OYS where you couldn't see the field from the concourses.

I happen to like the open concourses, but what I just hate is the lack of overhang. I don't know what it is with the paranoia of "subjecting" the lower level fans to something over their heads. I would thing people would like cover from the sun and rain. The Grandstand is set waayyyyy too far back, so the most vocal fans are invisible (and mute) to the players.

The worst example of these setbacks is Metlife Stadium. What a total cluster****. Jets are going to opt out of that deal with the Giants at the first opportunity

[Sparky]

I happen to like the open concourses, but what I just hate is the lack of overhang. I don't know what it is with the paranoia of "subjecting" the lower level fans to something over their heads. I would thing people would like cover from the sun and rain. The Grandstand is set waayyyyy too far back, so the most vocal fans are invisible (and mute) to the players.

The worst example of these setbacks is Metlife Stadium. What a total cluster****. Jets are going to opt out of that deal with the Giants at the first opportunity

Most new stadiums are built this way now (the HOK design), rather than the stacked design Osborn used.

I also think that the rake is not steep enough as heads are always in my way (often blocking the pitcher and batter) and I never had that problem at OYS.

[Ram Man]

[QUOTE=GordonGecko;7634951 I would thing people would like cover from the sun and rain. [/QUOTE]

I like cover from the rain and depending on where one's seat is located, such as on the 1B side of NYS, you can be in the shade without the overhang. I just don't like watching the game from deep under a overhang.

On my one visit to Tiger Stadium (we had great seats in the first row of the upper deck) I walked around the lower level and checked out some seats. If you were more than 10 rows back in the lower lever, you couldn't see popups or fly balls at all and it all got worse the farther back you went. It felt like you were watching the game from within a cave.

I had such seats at RFK on my one visit there even though on the seating chart, they looked like they would be OK. I hated them.

When I'm at a game, I want to be mostly out in the open and in the shade. If it is rainy, a poncho works wonders (although one cannot help but look like a dork in a poncho).

[35Knucklecurve]

I'm not a huge fan of the new Yankee Stadium - there's nothing that makes it feel distinctive, it's just a place where the Yankees happen to play - but please, let's not compare it with Veteran's Stadium. That place was awful.

I wasn't comparing Veteran's Stadium to Yankee Stadium as a structure - I was referring to the same sense of loss of atmosphere and empty feeling in comparing Connie Mack Stadium to Veteran's Stadium and OYS to NYS. Obiviously, it's not about championships or a long list of HOF calibre players. It's about what you carry with you as fan.

If they ever tear down Wrigley Field or Fenway, I hope they don't make the same mistakes when drawing up the blueprints for a new place. It is possible to go bigger and/or better without completely stripping just about everything that made the old ballpark special.

[theDurk]

I happen to like the open concourses, but what I just hate is the lack of overhang. I don't know what it is with the paranoia of "subjecting" the lower level fans to something over their heads. I would thing people would like cover from the sun and rain. The Grandstand is set waayyyyy too far back, so the most vocal fans are invisible (and mute) to the players.

The worst example of these setbacks is Metlife Stadium. What a total cluster****. Jets are going to opt out of that deal with the Giants at the first opportunity

It's not paranoia--it's greed--always the simplest explanation with today's Yankees. By setting back, you increase the number of seats in each row because the circle is bigger. It also increases the number of corporate boxes and compensates for those open concourses that eat up angles available for sight lines. And when they were done, they still ended up with fewer total seats. But they sell more overpriced food and have lots more expensive corporate suites. And yeah, reduce the rake and you can cram more rows into the same amount of vertical space.

[RayG]

It's not paranoia--it's greed--always the simplest explanation with today's Yankees. By setting back, you increase the number of seats in each row because the circle is bigger. It also increases the number of corporate boxes and compensates for those open concourses that eat up angles available for sight lines. And when they were done, they still ended up with fewer total seats. But they sell more overpriced food and have lots more expensive corporate suites. And yeah, reduce the rake and you can cram more rows into the same amount of vertical space.

The new stadium isn't setback to increase the seating in the upper deck due to a larger radius. It was designed to put the MOST seats in the lower bowl to increase seat revenue. The OYS was "upside down": 2/3rds of seats were upstairs, limiting the high price seating #'s. The NYS was designed opposite to put more seats in the lower bowl and thus increase seat revenue.

[ansky1128]

.... But the same can be said for ten or fifteen or twenty of arenas built around the country over the past ten or so years. The old place was a draw for people....

pretty much sums it up for me. Yankee Stadium simply isn't "special" anymore.

[effdamets]

When I go to The Stadium (and it's fairly often) I feel as though the game is the secondary show. All of the happenings behind the seating area are what a majority of the people go to see.
And the self promotion is totally out of control.