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  1. #4851

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by 2JAY View Post
    He is when plan B is either Cervelli or Chris Stewert.
    Still not getting how people can drool over Gardner's defense, but Stewart's pitch-framing is completely ignored.

    You pay a premium for offensive talent right now in this league. Defense comes at a discount. The Ben Zobrists, Brett Gardners, Brendan Ryans, and Chris Stewarts of the game are excellent values.


  2. #4852

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    Maybe I'm misremembering, as Roger would say, but wasn't Granderson considered one of the better defensive Cfers when he first came over from Detroit?
    Granderson was good but his reads were in question in this last 2 years with the Tigers. In 2008 especially there was a lot of grumbling about his defense and that he may have had vision problems. He still had his speed and ability to catch the ball if he got near it.

  3. #4853

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    Granderson was good but his reads were in question in this last 2 years with the Tigers. In 2008 especially there was a lot of grumbling about his defense and that he may have had vision problems. He still had his speed and ability to catch the ball if he got near it.
    LF at the stadium is no bargain either- especially during day games. Can be hard to get reads on balls- exactly Granderson's weak point
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  4. #4854
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Still not getting how people can drool over Gardner's defense, but Stewart's pitch-framing is completely ignored.

    You pay a premium for offensive talent right now in this league. Defense comes at a discount. The Ben Zobrists, Brett Gardners, Brendan Ryans, and Chris Stewarts of the game are excellent values.
    Zobrist and Gardner are excellent value due to the fact they are above average with the bat while being great defensively.

    The other two......not so much. I mean there is a reason why Jose Iglesias isn't an All-star SS for the Sox already.
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  5. #4855

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    Still not getting how people can drool over Gardner's defense, but Stewart's pitch-framing is completely ignored.

    You pay a premium for offensive talent right now in this league. Defense comes at a discount. The Ben Zobrists, Brett Gardners, Brendan Ryans, and Chris Stewarts of the game are excellent values.
    Gardner is very good at pretty much every aspect of defense besides arm strength, and he makes up for that with an accurate, quick release. He also gets on base. Chris Stewart, using only a brand new measure of defense (which I am not sold on, run wise), is good at one aspect of catcher defense, and then absolutely awful offensively.

    Not really the same thing.

  6. #4856
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    LF at the stadium is no bargain either- especially during day games. Can be hard to get reads on balls- exactly Granderson's weak point
    This is true, but it can still be limited/helped with a strong CFer, not vice versa.
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  7. #4857
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    That is the consensus here, and I have the same opinion myself. Let's hope that Ichiro and (best case) Romine prove us wrong about this, however.

    Remember also that the Yankees would have had to have someone else to play RF, and without putting in more money, they would not have been able to sign or trade for anyone good.

    That's true. But I think a good defense catcher who also has some power is harder to find than a corner outfielder. And anyway since he is 39 years old who knows how much output the Yankees will get ou of Suzuki for the length of his contract. They could have promoted someone from AAA to play RF had they kept Martin.

  8. #4858

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Maybe they can lure Mike Pizza out of retirement for cheap ?

  9. #4859
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    Maybe they can lure Mike Pizza out of retirement for cheap ?
    Only if they sign Clemens too.

  10. #4860

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Zobrist and Gardner are excellent value due to the fact they are above average with the bat while being great defensively.

    The other two......not so much. I mean there is a reason why Jose Iglesias isn't an All-star SS for the Sox already.
    I like Gardner but putting him in the same sentence as Zobrist is a non-starter.

    Gardner's career OPS+ is below 100. Zobrist has, i believe, the second highest OPS+ in all of baseball over the past four years and plays about 37 different postions.

    An argument could be made for Zobrist as the MVP of the AL from 2009 through 2012. Gardner is, at best, a nice complimentary piece who strives to be a poor man's Johnny Damon...with more range but minus the power.

  11. #4861
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I like Gardner but putting him in the same sentence as Zobrist is a non-starter.

    Gardner's career OPS+ is below 100. Zobrist has, i believe, the second highest OPS+ in all of baseball over the past four years and plays about 37 different postions.

    An argument could be made for Zobrist as the MVP of the AL from 2009 through 2012. Gardner is, at best, a nice complimentary piece who strives to be a poor man's Johnny Damon...with more range but minus the power.
    I love it when posters take posts out of context.

    The original post pointed out the importance of good defense when it came to value of a player and mentioned Zobrist and Gardner amongst others.

    Either way 2010/2011 combined WAR

    Gardner 11.4
    Zobrist 10.5

    However if you want to discuss how your hero Zobrist has the far and away better bat, yes no argument there.

    Edit: Holy Balls, B-Ref and fangraphs have a 2 win difference when it comes to Zobrist's 2010 season. So discount my WAR argument.
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  12. #4862

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    That's true. But I think a good defense catcher who also has some power is harder to find than a corner outfielder. And anyway since he is 39 years old who knows how much output the Yankees will get ou of Suzuki for the length of his contract. They could have promoted someone from AAA to play RF had they kept Martin.
    Or they could have given the job to Dickerson. As I said, I have the same opinion as you -- at least from a purely baseball perspective, giving the deal to Martin rather than Suzuki would have been the smarter move.

    But it is not a certainty that we are right. I assume you concur in hoping we are the ones who are wrong, not the Yankee FO.

  13. #4863
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Or they could have given the job to Dickerson. As I said, I have the same opinion as you -- at least from a purely baseball perspective, giving the deal to Martin rather than Suzuki would have been the smarter move.

    But it is not a certainty that we are right. I assume you concur in hoping we are the ones who are wrong, not the Yankee FO.
    I would be very happy if Romine turns out to be the next Posada and Suzuki bats .300.

  14. #4864

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

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  15. #4865
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I'm a broken record on this, but particularly with this public comment the Yankees would be negligent in not switching Gardner and Granderson defensively.

  16. #4866
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm a broken record on this, but particularly with this public comment the Yankees would be negligent in not switching Gardner and Granderson defensively.
    See - I believe that if Granderson is an awful left fielder, they shouldn't make the change because in essence, you're trading a bad centerfielder for and awful, well below average left fielder.
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  17. #4867

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Zobrist and Gardner are excellent value due to the fact they are above average with the bat while being great defensively.

    The other two......not so much. I mean there is a reason why Jose Iglesias isn't an All-star SS for the Sox already.
    I know all those players are different. But they should all probably be paid more (or be more coveted) than they are because their strong defense is overlooked. Zobrist should be an MVP candidate, Gardner should be considered one of the best CFers in the game, and Ryan should be considered more than a fringe major leaguer or a scrub. The point was not to place them on the same level in terms of value, but to point out that all along the spectrum, defense is being overlooked.

    The Iglesias comment partially proves my point. Even if he turns out to be a total wizard with the glove, he'll likely never be an All-Star because saving runs is not as sexy as creating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    Gardner is very good at pretty much every aspect of defense besides arm strength, and he makes up for that with an accurate, quick release. He also gets on base. Chris Stewart, using only a brand new measure of defense (which I am not sold on, run wise), is good at one aspect of catcher defense, and then absolutely awful offensively.

    Not really the same thing.
    Stewart threw out 22 base stealers vs 34 made it safely with the Giants (8/27 last year), so he has some talent in that department, though I think we'll have to wait before we know for sure. As far as pitch framing is concerned, if you're not sold on it, that's fine. I'm not either, but I won't act like the Yankees have no plan when it comes to the catcher position this year. Do people really think that 90 OPS+ Russell Martin is worth 17 million more than 70 OPS+ Chris Stewart?

    Again, I didn't say they were the same thing in all regards. I simply said they were undervalued because they have a distinct defensive skillset that isn't fully recognized yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    I love it when posters take posts out of context.

    The original post pointed out the importance of good defense when it came to value of a player and mentioned Zobrist and Gardner amongst others.
    Heh, I think my the original post has been taken out of context as well.
    Last edited by jcarey; 02-11-13 at 04:13 PM.


  18. #4868

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Chris Stewart was very good at throwing out runners when not on the Yankees. So was Russel Martin. So was Francisco Cervelli. Coming to the Yankees does something to catcher's throwing arms.

  19. #4869

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    Chris Stewart was very good at throwing out runners when not on the Yankees. So was Russel Martin. So was Francisco Cervelli. Coming to the Yankees does something to catcher's throwing arms.
    Might have something to do with the pitchers.
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  20. #4870
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Might have something to do with the pitchers.
    ... or playing for the Yankees in particular ?
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  21. #4871

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Might have something to do with the pitchers.
    So the Yankees are spending little effort in a very important half of throwing out runners, while also stocking backstop with guys who they know will lose most of their one skill's effectiveness?

    That seems like a bad mix, and I don't see guys like Wieters suffering with the cavalcade of crappy pitchers at throwing out runners, which is why I'm hesitant to lay the blame on the pitchers.

    If I were the Yankees and I knew my pitchers would reduce the effectiveness of any defensive catcher I used, I'd simply go for an offensive catcher.

  22. #4872
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    So the Yankees are spending little effort in a very important half of throwing out runners, while also stocking backstop with guys who they know will lose most of their one skill's effectiveness?

    That seems like a bad mix, and I don't see guys like Wieters suffering with the cavalcade of crappy pitchers at throwing out runners, which is why I'm hesitant to lay the blame on the pitchers.

    If I were the Yankees and I knew my pitchers would reduce the effectiveness of any defensive catcher I used, I'd simply go for an offensive catcher.
    A couple points on why that's a bad idea:

    1) throwing runners out is a pretty small part of a catcher's defensive value -- it's just one that's easily measured and visible

    2) Even if they're not as effective at throwing runners out, they're still relatively more effective than they'd be with a worse C out there. They're still adding value over a guy who can't throw well
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  23. #4873

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    A couple points on why that's a bad idea:

    1) throwing runners out is a pretty small part of a catcher's defensive value -- it's just one that's easily measured and visible

    2) Even if they're not as effective at throwing runners out, they're still relatively more effective than they'd be with a worse C out there. They're still adding value over a guy who can't throw well
    Either get a real elite backstop or put a hitter out there. Posada managed to throw out a decent amount of runners. It seems like Martin & Stewart are getting their high end cut off, but I'm not sure an average or below average thrower will see the same linear reduction.

    And both guys gave up lots of WP & PBs, so whatever we're assuming they are both great at framing pitches, and that framing pitches is worth ~2 wins, and that its not just mostly influenced by pitchers & umpires.

  24. #4874
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    Either get a real elite backstop or put a hitter out there. Posada managed to throw out a decent amount of runners. It seems like Martin & Stewart are getting their high end cut off, but I'm not sure an average or below average thrower will see the same linear reduction.

    And both guys gave up lots of WP & PBs, so whatever we're assuming they are both great at framing pitches, and that framing pitches is worth ~2 wins, and that its not just mostly influenced by pitchers & umpires.
    Well, yeah, if getting an elite C was an option, I think everyone would go for that choice.

    I think the other thing you're dealing with here is SSS. Martin was actually slightly above average the year before last, and it may not be fair to judge Chris Stewart on 35 attempts. If you look at the numbers, even a guy like Martin, who catches a lot, has pretty significant year to year swings
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  25. #4875

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    Well, yeah, if getting an elite C was an option, I think everyone would go for that choice.

    I think the other thing you're dealing with here is SSS. Martin was actually slightly above average the year before last, and it may not be fair to judge Chris Stewart on 35 attempts. If you look at the numbers, even a guy like Martin, who catches a lot, has pretty significant year to year swings
    I think its fine to judge Stewart on 35 attempts. He is a backup. He throws out near 50% in the minors. Threw out 39% the year before. And by elite backstop I mean defensively, because as you said of course we'd take a posey or wieters behind the plate. The guys the Yankees have gotten were touted as elite but did not do much at all that was elite other than the mysterious pitch framing. Like if we're going to put up with a guy that has a .600 OPS, why not throw out 35+% of runners, and not give up tons of passed balls/wild pitches? Maybe even reduce attempts taken as well.

    Edit: And just to point out, the minor league CS is important because pitchers in the minors are worse at holding runners. And gosh if guys like Romine can't throw out 30%+ in the minors, why are we assuming he is a very good major league defender?

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