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  1. #2551

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Youkillis on a 1 year 12 million deal is a great for everyone involved.

  2. #2552

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    He is entering his age 30 season and has 70 more HR than Kent did entering his age 30 season.
    that's surprising, but it doesn't change anything. Kent being able to beat the normal aging curve for power is no evidence that Cano will be able to.



    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...r-like-cheese/

  3. #2553

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    did youk sign i am not following anything.
    always reasonable

  4. #2554

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Regarding Hamilton I think he's waiting to see if we make an offer to be honest and I think we're waiting to see if we can deal Granderson for something. If we can get anything at all for CG and sign Hamilton I'm for it. Lock up Cano and move on

    If the Rangers feel like they're going to strike out on Upton and Hamilton they could take Granderson plus Hughes or Nova for Mike Olt, we sign Hamilton and boom, far-fetched maybe but not impossible
    Not Removing Until We Acquire Giancarlo Stanton

  5. #2555

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Blazer View Post
    You've asked others this question so it begs to be answered by you, "How do you know?"
    How do I know Cashman is not an "incompetent fool?" Well, the evidence is rather strong that he is not. Incompetent fools, for instance, do not generally rise to make the kind of money Cashman is making in a highly competitive industry with as much money at stake.

    If he makes you feel better to think you are much smarter than Yankee management and ownership, and they are all fools, you are free to so think. I find it more interesting to start with the assumption, which has proven true in my experience, that players on a high level of business are rational and relatively intelligent, and then try to figure out why they are doing what they are doing, rather than just ascribing their questionable decisions to incompetence or foolishness.

  6. #2556

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post

    Interesting...if Chavez wanted to stay, it was up to his agent? Nevermind that the Yankee FO knew that they'd be without ARod and are now willing to spend $12M on Youkliis for part-time 3B duty, $9M more than what Chavez signed. But, let's blame Chavez and his agent.
    I certainly am not "blaming" anyone for the failure of the Yankees and Chavez to reach an agreement that they both wanted, as my point is that the two sides did not want the same agreement. Maybe I am still misunderstanding you, but you seem to be blaming Cashman for being what I would consider an incompetent GM, for failing to get the offer together that would have secured Chavez at a salary the Yankee ownership was willing to pay. I think Chavez was not given an offer because the Yankee management/ownership did not want him at the price he was going to cost. Teams do not need to make offers to determine cost, any more than you need to make an offer on some real estate you are considering.

    So again, I think criticism of Cashman and Hal for undervaluing Chavez and/or overvaluing Youkilis is on point. but criticizing Cashman for his handling of negotiations is off base.

  7. #2557

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    I certainly am not "blaming" anyone for the failure of the Yankees and Chavez to reach an agreement that they both wanted, as my point is that the two sides did not want the same agreement. Maybe I am still misunderstanding you, but you seem to be blaming Cashman for being what I would consider an incompetent GM, for failing to get the offer together that would have secured Chavez at a salary the Yankee ownership was willing to pay. I think Chavez was not given an offer because the Yankee management/ownership did not want him at the price he was going to cost. Teams do not need to make offers to determine cost, any more than you need to make an offer on some real estate you are considering.

    So again, I think criticism of Cashman and Hal for undervaluing Chavez and/or overvaluing Youkilis is on point. but criticizing Cashman for his handling of negotiations is off base.
    No, I wasn't blaming Cashman nor was I inferring that he's incompetent. I was just responding to someone who said that the $8M saved on Martin could be used for Cano. My angle, whether doable or not (let's take away the "love" comment that was misunderstood), was that for $11M the Yanks might have had 2 position players, or $1M less than offered Youkilis. Of course, this is assuming that Martin and Chavez would have signed with the Yanks for the same $ amount.

    Of course, the $189M target for 2013, whether we like it or not, has handcuffed Cashman, though I question spending $12M on an aging, declining third baseman. I get the rationale and the supply/demand aspect of it, and I'm not one that roots for payroll decreases, but for a team that's on a supposed tight budget, it's contradictory to their new more frugal stance, even if only for one year.


  8. #2558
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    No, I wasn't blaming Cashman nor was I inferring that he's incompetent. I was just responding to someone who said that the $8M saved on Martin could be used for Cano. My angle, whether doable or not (let's take away the "love" comment that was misunderstood), was that for $11M the Yanks might have had 2 position players, or $1M less than offered Youkilis. Of course, this is assuming that Martin and Chavez would have signed with the Yanks for the same $ amount.

    Of course, the $189M target for 2013, whether we like it or not, has handcuffed Cashman, though I question spending $12M on an aging, declining third baseman. I get the rationale and the supply/demand aspect of it, and I'm not one that roots for payroll decreases, but for a team that's on a supposed tight budget, it's contradictory to their new more frugal stance, even if only for one year.
    That's an important caveat though. I definitely agree STRONGLY that I'd prefer Martin and Chavez at $11MM than Youkilis at $12MM this year. But Martin's requirement of a second year almost certainly was the nail in the coffin for this line of thinking.

  9. #2559

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Trade Cano now
    Sign Ichirio
    Sign Youk
    Sign Hamilton to 5 year deal
    Trade Granderson

  10. #2560
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    The Yankees will likely re-sign Ichiro Suzuki, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reported last night. The Yankees are showing strong interest in the free agent outfielder, Rosenthal writes. “They are all over him,” one person told FOX Sports. Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#71BdFRWPbBomQ092.99
    Yogi - “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”

  11. #2561

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    This trading Cano stuff is nonsense.
    EvilEmpireDC: Fans bitch about anything lol

  12. #2562

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    The business is going.
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  13. #2563
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by spikeowenfan View Post
    He's 30 and not halfway to 3000 hits or the HR lead. He has very little chance of doing either.

    Cano has compiled 32 WAR. Players in the 60-70 range are generally borderline. Not that WAR is considered by many voters*, but it's a good approximation. He basically has to double his career output to be on the cusp. Again, he's 30; there's no reason to expect he will do this. Regardless of if he does not, if you compare him to all hall of famers at age 30 I'd be shocked if wasn't far behind the pack i.e. he's not on pace for the HOF. I didn't think that was a controversial statement.

    *This will certainly change when Cano is on the ballot
    Yes it is a controversial statement because you use WAR as the measure. If we talk about whether he would get in the HOF, he is definitely on pace. He is on pace to have 2600+ hits, 250+ HR, 500+ double, 1200+ RBI. Right now there are 20 HOF 2B (22 if you count Biggio and Kent). Even though we include Biggio and Kent, only 9 of them had 2600+ hits; only 7 of them had 250+ HR; only 6 of them had 500+ double. There are only 6 HOF 2B who had 1200+ RBI.

    Btw by the age 29 season, his bWAR is 34.2 which is comparable to Sandberg's 36.0, Herman's 34.8, Lazzeri's 34.7, Gordon's 33.3 and Doerr's 31.2. Gehringer, Biggio, Kent, Fox, Mazeroski, Evers and Schoendienst all had bWAR 30.0 or less.

    He is definitely not at the same level of Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Morgan. But those are never the standard.

  14. #2564
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by spikeowenfan View Post



    Morgan is one of the 20 best players ever.
    And yet my statement still stands.
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  15. #2565
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    It'll never happen, but I'd be open to trading Cano now instead of signing him to a massive 10/$200M deal.

    People keep saying that Cashman's ability to get under $189M is hindered by the A-rod/Tex/CC contracts. How is the answer to sign another player to an 8-10 year deal at $20M? You can't have it both ways.

  16. #2566
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    It'll never happen, but I'd be open to trading Cano now instead of signing him to a massive 10/$200M deal.

    People keep saying that Cashman's ability to get under $189M is hindered by the A-rod/Tex/CC contracts. How is the answer to sign another player to an 8-10 year deal at $20M? You can't have it both ways.
    Agreed. Cano is one of my favorite players, but if it's going to take 10 years and some team is willing to pay a premium for him for one season, hate to admit it but I'd probably pull want them to pull the trigger too. The first 5 years of a deal like that might be great, but not interested in the last 5.

  17. #2567
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Youkillis on a 1 year 12 million deal is a great for everyone involved.
    Well, at least if your name is Youkilis.

    He's also married to Tom Brady's sister. So the Brady connection is yet another reason to dislike him.

  18. #2568
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by LongtimeNYYFan View Post
    Well, at least if your name is Youkilis.

    He's also married to Tom Brady's sister. So the Brady connection is yet another reason to dislike him.
    How can you hate a fellow Yankee fan?
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  19. #2569

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    It'll never happen, but I'd be open to trading Cano now instead of signing him to a massive 10/$200M deal.

    People keep saying that Cashman's ability to get under $189M is hindered by the A-rod/Tex/CC contracts. How is the answer to sign another player to an 8-10 year deal at $20M? You can't have it both ways.
    As long as the Yankees have a chance to be a playoff team next season, I won't trade Cano. However, I'm with you regarding not giving him a 8-10 year contract after the 2013 season.
    Is this the end of the Brian Cashman era?

  20. #2570

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    How can you hate a fellow Yankee fan?
    What's funny is doesn't Brady live in NYC during his offseason?
    Is this the end of the Brian Cashman era?

  21. #2571
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Speaking of Cano....

    Maybe someone can explain to me....

    What prevents the Yankees from signing Cano to a 20 year deal worth 200 million and include an opt out clause ofter the 2016 season. Have Cano opt out after 2016 and then re-sign him to a 7 year deal worth 170 million?
    It may be unethical, but.....
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  22. #2572
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    What's funny is doesn't Brady live in NYC during his offseason?
    Brady grew up rooting for the Yankees....
    And yes - believe he and his wife live in NYC.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  23. #2573

    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Speaking of Cano....

    Maybe someone can explain to me....

    What prevents the Yankees from signing Cano to a 20 year deal worth 200 million and include an opt out clause ofter the 2016 season. Have Cano opt out after 2016 and then re-sign him to a 7 year deal worth 170 million?
    It may be unethical, but.....
    1. Why would Cano do this? 2. If MLB sniffs any hint at trying to maliciously avoid the CBT they can mess your junk up. 3. If you front load the contract then when Cano opts out the Yankees will be hit with penalties for the next season based on the tax burden avoided. 4. Again, why would Cano do this when he can get close to 200 mil for less years?

  24. #2574
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    1. Why would Cano do this? 2. If MLB sniffs any hint at trying to maliciously avoid the CBT they can mess your junk up. 3. If you front load the contract then when Cano opts out the Yankees will be hit with penalties for the next season based on the tax burden avoided. 4. Again, why would Cano do this when he can get close to 200 mil for less years?
    Cano would do it because he wants to stay in NY.
    Of course, it's just an idea and I realize it wouldn't happen.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  25. #2575
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: New York Yankees 2012-2013 Offseason Outlook

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerkface View Post
    So he only has to be a .900 OPS second baseman well into his 30s to get into the HoF? I think that means he isn't on a HoF pace. It means he still has a chance to get into the HoF consideration. A slim one given the decline of second basemen. If he puts up 3 more years like his last 2 I think he starts getting in the discussion.
    Apparently you missed the "cooling down slightly" part. He's definitely on a HoF pace, it's not even a discussion.

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