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  1. #26
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Unless people were throwing knives and rocks I don't think it was a serious criminal offense to throw empty bottles and hot dog wrappers. It's more like disorderly conduct and should be a summons & fine

  2. #27

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    EvilEmpireDC: Fans bitch about anything lol

  3. #28
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Was the game a sell out? I didn't even think the Braves had any fans. Let alone people who would risk a fine or jail for throwing crap.

    The call probably didn't cause the crappy Braves to lose (the crappy Braves did that), and the Braves are crappy, so I'm kinda glad they lost.
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  4. #29

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    I really don't think that the umpire blew that call last night. I agree that the spirit and intent of the rule is to prevent the infielder from intentionally dropping the ball and then getting an easy double play...so in that sense, the call didn't work.

    That said, techically I don't see how the umpire made the wrong call last night. Harold Reynolds broke this down really well on mlb network.

    The umpire is supposed to wait until the ball reaches its peak. He then see if the INFIELDER is camped underneath it. If he is, the umpire is to call infield fly. He did all those things precisely how it is written.

    I think the issue is that the rule should be re-written somehow...if the ball is a certain depth beyond the infield dirt or something...which would be tough to determine.

  5. #30

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    No one in here has given a good reason why it was a bad call. Unfortunate consequence of an imperfect rule, maybe, but not a bad call.


  6. #31

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I really don't think that the umpire blew that call last night. I agree that the spirit and intent of the rule is to prevent the infielder from intentionally dropping the ball and then getting an easy double play...so in that sense, the call didn't work.

    That said, techically I don't see how the umpire made the wrong call last night. Harold Reynolds broke this down really well on mlb network.

    The umpire is supposed to wait until the ball reaches its peak. He then see if the INFIELDER is camped underneath it. If he is, the umpire is to call infield fly. He did all those things precisely how it is written.

    I think the issue is that the rule should be re-written somehow...if the ball is a certain depth beyond the infield dirt or something...which would be tough to determine.
    Exactly.


  7. #32
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I really don't think that the umpire blew that call last night. I agree that the spirit and intent of the rule is to prevent the infielder from intentionally dropping the ball and then getting an easy double play...so in that sense, the call didn't work.

    That said, techically I don't see how the umpire made the wrong call last night. Harold Reynolds broke this down really well on mlb network.

    The umpire is supposed to wait until the ball reaches its peak. He then see if the INFIELDER is camped underneath it. If he is, the umpire is to call infield fly. He did all those things precisely how it is written.

    I think the issue is that the rule should be re-written somehow...if the ball is a certain depth beyond the infield dirt or something...which would be tough to determine.
    Except he didn't even come close to doing that. the ball was well into it's decent before the infield fly was called. That's the biggest problem with this.

    A secondary issue is that the infielder was not camped, he was drifting with the ball.

    But primarily the issue was that the intended effect of the rule was lost in it's entirety due to its application coming so farcically late.
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  8. #33

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Except he didn't even come close to doing that. the ball was well into it's decent before the infield fly was called. That's the biggest problem with this.

    A secondary issue is that the infielder was not camped, he was drifting with the ball.

    But primarily the issue was that the intended effect of the rule was lost in it's entirety due to its application coming so farcically late.
    The secondary issue is what created the first issue. The ump had to see if the ball was easily catchable. It was, but it's not obvious off the bat. I also heard he audibly called it before throwing up his arm, but can't verify.

    People are complaining that he wasn't under the ball and that the call wasn't made at the ball's peak. Ok, for that to happen, the fielder has to be camped under the ball before its peak so the ump can call it. Not realistic. He has to make the call as soon as he thinks its catchable with ordinary effort, easier on some plays than others.

    What benefit did the Braves get from the lateness of the call, exactly?

    I understand the spirit of the rule, but a rule that allows a few rare events to occur that defeat its purpose is to blame, not the ump. If you want an ump to make that more difficult, still subjective ruling about whether a defense will gain an advantage in real time, you're opening umps up to similar criticism on borderline plays.


  9. #34

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    What benefit did the Braves get from the lateness of the call, exactly?
    The Braves benefited from the call being made late. Had it been made sooner, chances are the runners would have retreated to first and second, respectively, thinking that the ball would be caught. As it was, seeing the ball hit the ground, they advanced to second and third. They may have still advanced even with an early call, but knowing that the batter was already out (due to the early call of the infield fly), chances are they would have not ventured as far off their respective bases.

    The ONLY argument that can be made about this call was whether it should have been called an infield fly or not. The argument about early vs. late doesn't hold water since the aggrieved team, the Braves, benefited from the late call.

    A strict reading of the rules suggests that it was called within those rules. There is no provision for distance from the infield in determining whether the fly is an "infield fly" or not. The only criterion is that an infielder be in position to catch the ball with "ordinary effort." To me, when the Cards' SS drifted back, slowed down and put his hand out to indicate he had it all suggest ordinary effort.
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  10. #35

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Man View Post
    The Braves benefited from the call being made late. Had it been made sooner, chances are the runners would have retreated to first and second, respectively, thinking that the ball would be caught. As it was, seeing the ball hit the ground, they advanced to second and third. They may have still advanced even with an early call, but knowing that the batter was already out (due to the early call of the infield fly), chances are they would have not ventured as far off their respective bases.

    The ONLY argument that can be made about this call was whether it should have been called an infield fly or not. The argument about early vs. late doesn't hold water since the aggrieved team, the Braves, benefited from the late call.

    A strict reading of the rules suggests that it was called within those rules. There is no provision for distance from the infield in determining whether the fly is an "infield fly" or not. The only criterion is that an infielder be in position to catch the ball with "ordinary effort." To me, when the Cards' SS drifted back, slowed down and put his hand out to indicate he had it all suggest ordinary effort.
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  11. #36
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Unless people were throwing knives and rocks I don't think it was a serious criminal offense to throw empty bottles and hot dog wrappers. It's more like disorderly conduct and should be a summons & fine
    What if an empty bottle were to hit one of the players/umpires on the field and causes an injury? In this state, using an instrument such as a bottle, to cause an injury is a felony. I agree that the call was terrible but I don't think that gives the fans the right to throw a temper tantrum like 2 year olds just because they did not get their way. And as someone else pointed out earlier, what if it had happened to the Yankees, I would like to think that the fan base would have reacted without throwing items and disrupting the game. A horrible call and an equally horrible outburst by the Atlanta fans.

  12. #37
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Sorry, but you do not assume a catch like that could have been made with "ordinary effort" in that situation. The fact that the umpire took so long to make the call tells me that he wasn't sure that it was "ordinary effort". So don't cite me the rule. It's a dumb rule with too much open to interpretation to be taken literally. Common sense should have prevailed in that situation.
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  13. #38

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    if there were the normal 4 umpires doing the game,
    the 3rd base and 2nd base umpires would have never called the infield fly rule.

    the extra umpire in an unfamiliar position made a terrible call.
    and that the other 5 umpires say he made the right call, only confirms my opinion 100%

  14. #39

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Sorry, but you do not assume a catch like that could have been made with "ordinary effort" in that situation. The fact that the umpire took so long to make the call tells me that he wasn't sure that it was "ordinary effort". So don't cite me the rule. It's a dumb rule with too much open to interpretation to be taken literally. Common sense should have prevailed in that situation.
    People act like if he made that catch, it would have made Sportscenter's Top 10. I could have made that catch.


  15. #40
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    There has been a lot of discussion of this on TV by this point. There are apparently some unwritten sub-clauses of the infield fly rule that are accepted pre-conditions for the umpire to make the call:

    a) the ball must have reached or passed the peak of its flight; and

    b) an infielder must be 'camped' under the ball and prepared to make the catch.

    Different people on different networks (all knowledgeable) have mentioned these, but they do not appear in the rules of baseball. They don't conflict with the written rule, but they don't intuitively derive from them.

    Does anyone have a written source for these? I'd love to know where they came from.
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  16. #41

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by corsari42 View Post
    People throw home run balls back on the field all the time (which I hate btw). How exactly is this different?
    Seriously?

  17. #42

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    I could have made that catch.
    My grandmother could have made that catch and she's been dead for 25 years.
    I can't complain but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh

  18. #43

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    There has been a lot of discussion of this on TV by this point. There are apparently some unwritten sub-clauses of the infield fly rule that are accepted pre-conditions for the umpire to make the call:

    a) the ball must have reached or passed the peak of its flight; and

    b) an infielder must be 'camped' under the ball and prepared to make the catch.

    Different people on different networks (all knowledgeable) have mentioned these, but they do not appear in the rules of baseball. They don't conflict with the written rule, but they don't intuitively derive from them.

    Does anyone have a written source for these? I'd love to know where they came from.
    Me too. The wikipedia page tries to flesh out the rule, but doesn't cite sources. I wonder if it's just ehat umpires in training are told.


  19. #44
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    People act like if he made that catch, it would have made Sportscenter's Top 10. I could have made that catch.
    Doesn't matter. You do not make a judgment call like that in that situation. It's a poorly written rule and the umpire exercised poor judgment in enforcing the rule.

    In the past 3 seasons, there have been 6 infield fly rules where the ball was not caught. Prior to last night, the longest distance traveled for one was 178ft. The ball hit last night was 225 feet from home plate. I know that distance has nothing to do with the infield fly rule, but I also know that the SS plays roughly 130 ft from the plate. So it is now considered "ordinary effort" for a player to run 100ft from his starting position, with his back to the plate, to make a catch? That is a huge assumption for an umpire to make at that point in the game with a team's season on the line.
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  20. #45

    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    So it is now considered "ordinary effort" for a player to run 100ft from his starting position, with his back to the plate, to make a catch? That is a huge assumption for an umpire to make at that point in the game with a team's season on the line.
    Presumably the umpire was watching the play rather than measuring the distance covered. Honestly, is there anything about the infielder's pursuit of that ball that appeared beyond "ordinary effort"? He was slowing down, settling under the ball, and did not have his back to the plate. I really think it's silly to say there was anything about that play that involved extraordinary effort.

  21. #46
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by 2JAY View Post
    What if an empty bottle were to hit one of the players/umpires on the field and causes an injury? In this state, using an instrument such as a bottle, to cause an injury is a felony. I agree that the call was terrible but I don't think that gives the fans the right to throw a temper tantrum like 2 year olds just because they did not get their way. And as someone else pointed out earlier, what if it had happened to the Yankees, I would like to think that the fan base would have reacted without throwing items and disrupting the game. A horrible call and an equally horrible outburst by the Atlanta fans.
    who got injured? And no they don't have the right, but the punishment has to fit the crime. I'm sorry but felony for throwing a plastic bottle that hits the field doesn't come anywhere near to that level

  22. #47
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk View Post
    Seriously?
    I think there's much difference between a fan throwing a bottle, or a baseball on the field.
    Obviously this is on a greater scale, but the idea is pretty much the same, I think. Both can hurt the players out on the field and are just idiotic things to do.

  23. #48
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by corsari42 View Post
    I think there's much difference between a fan throwing a bottle, or a baseball on the field.
    Obviously this is on a greater scale, but the idea is pretty much the same, I think. Both can hurt the players out on the field and are just idiotic things to do.
    Well, one difference is that a baseball is thrown back to the field by a fan of the home team when his players are on the field, so they never throw at players. If somebody in the right field bleachers beaned Paulie at Yankee Stadium, especially with hostile intent, a felony would be the least of his problems.

    These characters in Atlanta were throwing at visiting players and umpires with hostile intent. Even those just throwing that crap on the field in this case did so with the intention of participating in a mass disruption of play, not the single act of a baseball bouncing on the grass. Yeah, there's a difference. This was ugly and got dangerous. The baseball thing is harmless by comparison.
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  24. #49
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    1 game playoff, the loser's season ends. Terrible call in a huge situation. Fans act irrationally out of disgust in a highly emotional state. This is shocking?
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  25. #50
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    Re: Infield Fly Rule Called in Outfield... AFTER the ball falls in. Postseason. For r

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    Well, one difference is that a baseball is thrown back to the field by a fan of the home team when his players are on the field, so they never throw at players. If somebody in the right field bleachers beaned Paulie at Yankee Stadium, especially with hostile intent, a felony would be the least of his problems.

    These characters in Atlanta were throwing at visiting players and umpires with hostile intent. Even those just throwing that crap on the field in this case did so with the intention of participating in a mass disruption of play, not the single act of a baseball bouncing on the grass. Yeah, there's a difference. This was ugly and got dangerous. The baseball thing is harmless by comparison.
    I thought they were just throwing bottles onto the field, not at opposing players. If there's an intent to hit someone, obviously that changes everything and my point is moot.

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