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Thread: 2012 MVP Race

  1. #401
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYankeesFan92 View Post
    During March & April Dimaggio had a slash line of .375/.474/.719.
    how valuable could he have been, the Yanks were a .500 clu then? He finished with a much lower but still impressive .357/.440/.643 line so someone else must have been much more valuable when the Yanks were atually building a 17 game lead than Joe on the Yanks.

    If only Teddy could have lowered the Boston pitching ERA by a run, the Red Sox may not have finsihed so far out.
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  2. #402
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Actually a better comp than 1941 is 1947 when Joe D stole another of WIlliams MVPs. That year Williams beat Joe in every /// cat by pretty solid margins as well as HR, R, RBI and more than doubled Joe's WAR 9.6 to 4.5 yet Joe won probably the closet vote ever, 202 to 201. but Boston finished 3rd, 14 game behind Joe's Yanks.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  3. #403

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    The Angels actually finished with a better record than the Cabrera-led Tigers.

    Either way, are you really going to fault Trout for his team not making the playoffs?
    But weren't the Angels suppose to win 110 games and blow through the playoffs ?
    Ain't it EVIL to LIVE backwards

  4. #404

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    not when trumbo was ................ing around with a -100 uzr at 3b and pujols was hitting .250 for a month
    always reasonable

  5. #405
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Can we please get rid of the Divisions in the Leagues so dumb arguments can go away?
    Pardon, for us.

  6. #406

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by madjack View Post
    Ben Zobrist led the league in WAR last year, and he's not even the best player on his team. If that doesn't tell you how flawed WAR is, then what else is there to say?


    Trout can win WAR Of The Year. Cabrera is the MVP.
    I can't believe some of these posters. You have a guy who just won the triple crown, THE FREAKING TRIPLE CROWN. I don't care if Trout had a 20 WAR season, Cabrera accomplished something IMO, that makes him an immortal. When you join the ranks of Foxx, Gehrig, Williams, and Mantle, that is saying something. There have been many 10 WAR seasons in the pat 40 years. How many TC? none, until Miggy did it. The Triple Crown symbolizes greatness. It's something we're not going to see again in our lifetimes. I can bet you money that Trout is never going to do it.

    Triple Crown should be an automatic MVP. It's a damn shame people nowadays don't appreciate it. It is the ultimate offensive accomplishment in baseball. Plus, Trout's team didn't make the playoff's and Miggy's did.

    And I'm a young guy in my 20's who is as sabermatrics as they come. But, at least I appreciate history.

  7. #407

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    I can't believe some of these posters. You have a guy who just won the triple crown, THE FREAKING TRIPLE CROWN. I don't care if Trout had a 20 WAR season, Cabrera accomplished something IMO, that makes him an immortal. When you join the ranks of Foxx, Gehrig, Williams, and Mantle, that is saying something. There have been many 10 WAR seasons in the pat 40 years. How many TC? none, until Miggy did it. The Triple Crown symbolizes greatness. It's something we're not going to see again in our lifetimes. I can bet you money that Trout is never going to do it.

    Triple Crown should be an automatic MVP. It's a damn shame people nowadays don't appreciate it. It is the ultimate offensive accomplishment in baseball. Plus, Trout's team didn't make the playoff's and Miggy's did.

    And I'm a young guy in my 20's who is as sabermatrics as they come. But, at least I appreciate history.
    It's that some people overvalue some SABR stats and especially, if that's the only stat that can backup their argument.
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  8. #408

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    triple crown is great but it is not the correct measure for mvp.
    always reasonable

  9. #409
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    The funniest thing in this thread is seeing those that defend the sanctity of the Triple Crown by saying "I know all about WAR and love advanced metrics," but then go on to say things that could only come from someone who had absolutely no clue about more comprehensive and accurate modern evaluative methods.

    I mean there's no two ways about it. If you hold the concept of the triple crown as one of the truly defining statistics of actual baseball value, you have no clue what you're talking about. You're wrong. There's no "respect the opinion", as it's just flat out incorrect. You can argue all you want about it, much like people of the Flat Earth Society will tell us that we live on a disc, but it's easily proven wrong with scientific evidence. That doesn't mean that they stop arguing, but instead that there's no reason for them to be taken seriously.
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  10. #410

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by ARodCanoMelky View Post
    It's that some people overvalue some SABR stats and especially, if that's the only stat that can backup their argument.
    Completely incorrect statement, at least in the context of this thread.

    If you read the thread you will see that not only is WAR not the only stat used, but it is also explained outside the realm of statistics.

    A few pages ago I stated that this did not have to devolve into a SABR vs Non SABR discussion, but it has, because it's a neat little argument to use when the facts don't back up your statements.
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  11. #411

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post

    Triple Crown should be an automatic MVP. It's a damn shame people nowadays don't appreciate it. It is the ultimate offensive accomplishment in baseball. Plus, Trout's team didn't make the playoff's and Miggy's did.

    And I'm a young guy in my 20's who is as sabermatrics as they come. But, at least I appreciate history.
    You are not as sabermetrics as they come, since the first sentence in your quote ignores defense. And you place outdated metrics above so many others. It's completely anti-SABR.
    Team Northern Lights

  12. #412

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    triple crown is great but it is not the correct measure for mvp.
    It's not even close to being the correct measure...again...because it uses Batting Average and RBI. If included OBP and got rid of RBIs, then you'd be saying something. Even then it wouldn't be a true measure of value. Why you ask? Nothing to do with Sabermetrics really.

    An example. Say there was a catcher or a SS who hit .329/43/135 this year. That player is less valuable than The Butcher of Maracay, because of some unique designation that had much more meaning 50 years ago? Please.

    And that's basically what we have here. An elite defensive CF, who had a better OBP than Cabrera, and who had enough steals to eat into Cabreras advantage in stolen bases. Nothing to do with Sabermetrics, it's about providing value in every facet of the game. Trout did that in spades this year. Cabrera winning the Triple Crown is cool, but Trout was more valuable.

  13. #413
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Mike Trout is the only player ever to steal 45+ bases, hit 30+ HRs, and score 120+ runs.


    So he did something rarer than the Triple Crown.



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  14. #414

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGameEpisode2 View Post
    Mike Trout is the only player ever to steal 45+ bases, hit 30+ HRs, and score 120+ runs.


    So he did something rarer than the Triple Crown.


    Miggy is the only Triple Crown winner to ever play for a team that finished 88-74 while ending their season with a 1-0 victory over the Royals in Kansas City on a Wednesday.

  15. #415

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    I think the triple crown obsession comes from the general idea that it captures two distinct skill sets ... in other words, Wade Boggs / Tony Gwynn types win batting titles but don't hit home runs, while Mark McGwire types hit homers and can't come near a .300 batting average.

    Hence the idea that a triple crown winner represents some kind of "complete package" that transcends other accomplishments. I do think it's fair to say that hitters commonly viewed as generational talents -- guys like Pujols, A-Rod, and yes, Miguel Cabrera -- are admired in part for the fact that they're capable of winning a triple crown. And now, one has pulled it off after a very long drought.

    But as has been very capably argued in this thread, there are much better ways to capture the "complete package" of what a position player can bring to the game, and the breadth of Trout's talent and statistical achievements -- not only at the plate, but in the field and on the basepaths -- is truly astonishing.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  16. #416
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGameEpisode2 View Post
    Mike Trout is the only player ever to steal 45+ bases, hit 30+ HRs, and score 120+ runs.


    So he did something rarer than the Triple Crown.


    1987 Eric Davis

  17. #417

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Make it 125+ runs, then. As long as we're basing this on completely arbitrary accomplishments, we can do whatever we want.

  18. #418
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Make it 125+ runs, then. As long as we're basing this on completely arbitrary accomplishments, we can do whatever we want.
    How is leading the league = arbitrary?

  19. #419

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by madjack View Post
    How is leading the league = arbitrary?
    What's arbitrary is using those three statistics. They're, at best, a woefully incomplete measure of a player's hitting ability, not to mention including no baserunning or defense. There's no reason that the "triple crown" stats should have any special meaning that leading the league in OBP, R, and SB shouldn't have. And the latter three would indicate a better player (though the first two stats in the group basically measure the same thing).

  20. #420
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    What's arbitrary is using those three statistics. They're, at best, a woefully incomplete measure of a player's hitting ability, not to mention including no baserunning or defense. There's no reason that the "triple crown" stats should have any special meaning that leading the league in OBP, R, and SB shouldn't have. And the latter three would indicate a better player (though the first two stats in the group basically measure the same thing).
    All stats are incomplete. They have to be looked at in context with one another. BA, HRs, and RBI measure three of the most sought after abilities in baseball: hitting for average, hitting for power, and driving in runs.

    WAR attempts to be the most complete stat, but there is not even a standardized way of computing it. The 3 main sites all have differing equations.

  21. #421
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    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    The most sought after hitting is not making out.

  22. #422

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    I can't believe some of these posters. You have a guy who just won the triple crown, THE FREAKING TRIPLE CROWN. I don't care if Trout had a 20 WAR season, Cabrera accomplished something IMO, that makes him an immortal. When you join the ranks of Foxx, Gehrig, Williams, and Mantle, that is saying something. There have been many 10 WAR seasons in the pat 40 years. How many TC? none, until Miggy did it. The Triple Crown symbolizes greatness. It's something we're not going to see again in our lifetimes. I can bet you money that Trout is never going to do it.
    Have you not been following this thread? Look at the names of the guys whose ranks Trout joined this season: Musial, Mays, Mantle, Bonds. Is that not saying something?


  23. #423

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Anyone know if anyone has won what i think of as the real offensive triple crown, avg, hr, and sb?

  24. #424

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Anyone know if anyone has won what i think of as the real offensive triple crown, avg, hr, and sb?

    should be wRC+/OPS+/HR
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  25. #425

    Re: 2012 MVP Race

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    should be wRC+/OPS+/HR
    wRC+/WAR/wOBA

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