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  1. #501

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    Touche.

    Still doesnt account for the pitchers they did draft or sign and completely ruined.

    No one can tell me this organization does not have a pitching problem, deficiency, weakness.

    If there is one glaring hole in this empire they've built, it is starting pitching ... has been for more than a decade now.

    So the pitching problem gets chalked up to bad luck ... and we throw the 1st exits in the playoffs in there too, we've just been unlucky.

    Maybe Cashman was unlucky when he broke his leg yesterday.
    Exactly the organizations that succeed are lucky and the ones that fail are unlucky. Obviously luck plays a role but no one can't tell me some organizations are just flat out lucky when it comes to things like development. Whether it's football, baseball, or basketball some organizations are better at developing talent than others. Is it luck that the NY Giants can draft and find WRs with ease while the Jets struggle in this area.

  2. #502

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    Why would he bad mouth them? He still came up through the Yankees' system
    I never said he bad mouth them just stating what he said. He credits the Dbacks for who he is as a pitcher. apparently they changed his stance or grip

  3. #503
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    Kennedy credits the Dbacks for turning his career around and making him into he pitching he is today. He said this on the MLB Network a couple of seasons ago.
    So in a single spring training they overhauled him? What specifically did they change? Why wouldn't he say that? It's not like he didn't flash brilliance in the Yankee system.

  4. #504

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    So in a single spring training they overhauled him? What specifically did they change? Why wouldn't he say that? It's not like he didn't flash brilliance in the Yankee system.
    True he did show flashes of brilliance in the system but he did have a have time up here. It wouldn't be the first time another team unlocked something in a pitcher and turned him around

  5. #505
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    True he did show flashes of brilliance in the system but he did have a have time up here. It wouldn't be the first time another team unlocked something in a pitcher and turned him around
    He was dominant in the time he was in the Yankees system (overall ERA of 1.95), and then great in 19 innings in a September call up. His struggles consisted of a stint just under 40 innings -- it's not at all unusual for a young pitcher to struggle in his first real chance at starting. I'd hardly call that a turnaround.
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  6. #506

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    The FO found a diamond in the rough in Joba and had absolutely no idea what to do with him.
    Can a guy drafted 41st overall be a diamond in the rough?

  7. #507
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Not saying they couldn't have done better, and definitely not saying they haven't botched development/rehab in numerous cases, but agree that the criticism is excessive. The "since Andy Pettitte" sound bite is factual but not all that insightful in the broader context.
    The "since Andy Pettitte" sound bite ... thats a 15 season span.

    Sounds like an elaborate drawn out excuse for poor performance to me. We're not the Pirates, folks. This isn't Pittsburgh. Our fanbase has an increasingly difficult time coming to terms with criticism.

    What you call bad luck i call a flaw ... Their scouting is flawed. They very often overpay for mediocre FA pitching, and even when the scouting actually gets something right, they can't develop. Its a pattern ... a pattern that has been manifesting itself for a while now.

    How much longer would it need to go on for you to label it an actual problem ?
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  8. #508
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    True he did show flashes of brilliance in the system but he did have a have time up here. It wouldn't be the first time another team unlocked something in a pitcher and turned him around
    Turned around a player the Yankees drafted in the first round of '06, rocketed through their system in '07 and pitched brilliantly (albeit SSS) in his MLB cup of coffee that year, got a shot at starting in '08 but struggled and also had a lat injury and bursitis in his pitching shoulder limit his progress, had an anuerysm wipe out '09? They "unlocked" something in a few weeks of spring training in '10? You really believe that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    He was dominant in the time he was in the Yankees system (overall ERA of 1.95), and then great in 19 innings in a September call up. His struggles consisted of a stint just under 40 innings -- it's not at all unusual for a young pitcher to struggle in his first real chance at starting. I'd hardly call that a turnaround.
    Right. History is littered with pitchers that struggle initially, don't get traded and "unlocked" and go on to have successful careers. This is not meant to compare the pitchers themselves, but look at that great Braves rotation of the 90's. Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine all struggled initially and, without changing teams, became some of the best pitchers of their era.

  9. #509
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Deleted - duplicate

  10. #510
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Deleted - triplicate. Today is not my day on the interwebs apparently. Apologies!

  11. #511
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    The "since Andy Pettitte" sound bite ... thats a 15 season span.

    Sounds like an elaborate drawn out excuse for poor performance to me. We're not the Pirates, folks. This isn't Pittsburgh. Our fanbase has an increasingly difficult time coming to terms with criticism.

    What you call bad luck i call a flaw ... Their scouting is flawed. They very often overpay for mediocre FA pitching, and even when the scouting actually gets something right, they can't develop. Its a pattern ... a pattern that has been manifesting itself for a while now.

    How much longer would it need to go on for you to label it an actual problem ?
    During most of that 15 year span... did the Yankees in general during that time frame have horrible starting pitching? Did they solve for SP by drafting? Did they intentionally focus resources elsewhere?

  12. #512

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman View Post
    The "since Andy Pettitte" sound bite ... thats a 15 season span.

    Sounds like an elaborate drawn out excuse for poor performance to me. We're not the Pirates, folks. This isn't Pittsburgh. Our fanbase has an increasingly difficult time coming to terms with criticism.

    What you call bad luck i call a flaw ... Their scouting is flawed. They very often overpay for mediocre FA pitching, and even when the scouting actually gets something right, they can't develop. Its a pattern ... a pattern that has been manifesting itself for a while now.

    How much longer would it need to go on for you to label it an actual problem ?
    You bring up the Pirates ... Where is their ace? Look, for a few years, about five years ago, I was also all about the whole "not since Andy" thing. But then you start to look around. Who has developed aces that didn't go at the very top of the draft? Not many at all. That earlier post about this was brilliant. It's hard to find aces. Young pitchers get hurt. And we overvalue them as fans.

    If you went to this site a couple years ago, Betances and Banuelos were untouchable gods. Yet, a look at their numbers showed that control problems were always there. And they were very young and potential injuries were lurking. Five or so years ago, based on the Yanks' "development" there was a dude on here who posted about Hughes, Joba and Kennedy and Alan Horne all becoming the next Pedro Martinez (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much) and tons of people on here agreed. Based on their numbers that happened in the Yanks farm system. Development was good then, I guess, when it fit folks' narrative of choice.

    Young pitching is an inexact science. Our failure to develop hasn't seemed to hurt us yet. Look at our competition in the division. Take away the Rays who have had some nice drafting spots, who have the others developed? Orioles? Let's see about Bundy before we anoint. The Red Sox? Lester's good, but other than him? The Blue Jays? Halliday and Carpenter (sort of)? I'm missing folks, I'm sure, but the point is that frontline pitching is hard and many of these guys don't even flourish till they're on the next stop (Carpenter, Wainwright, the aforementioned Haren) ...

    This idea that the Yanks ruined Joba is just completely unfounded. Could they have hurt his development? Sure. Maybe. You have no idea. Neither do I. Was Hughes destined to be Verlander if he only got drafted by someone else? Sure. Doubt it, but who knows? But there's no rational evidence.

    And you called Joba a diamond in the rough which makes no sense, but if true, why would Cashman not want credit for developing this diamond in the rough? Of course he would. Spite makes no sense. If Joba or some other young pitcher did well, Cash would be a drafting god. It only hurts him that Joba is a middling 7th inning pitcher that can't stay healthy.

    OK, done rambling. Hope folks can find some nugget of good stuff in there.

  13. #513

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Deleted - triplicate. Today is not my day on the interwebs apparently. Apologies!
    It happens to us all no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Turned around a player the Yankees drafted in the first round of '06, rocketed through their system in '07 and pitched brilliantly (albeit SSS) in his MLB cup of coffee that year, got a shot at starting in '08 but struggled and also had a lat injury and bursitis in his pitching shoulder limit his progress, had an anuerysm wipe out '09? They "unlocked" something in a few weeks of spring training in '10? You really believe that
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    He was dominant in the time he was in the Yankees system (overall ERA of 1.95), and then great in 19 innings in a September call up. His struggles consisted of a stint just under 40 innings -- it's not at all unusual for a young pitcher to struggle in his first real chance at starting. I'd hardly call that a turnaround.
    It's what Kennedy believes so he must feel like they did something right.

  14. #514
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    It happens to us all no problem.





    It's what Kennedy believes so he must feel like they did something right.
    I'm not doubting that the D-Backs supported his development and helped him. I just think, when you look at his trajectory, it's hard to call him a turnaround or imply that the Yankees didn't play a big part in what he became.
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  15. #515

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    It's what Kennedy believes so he must feel like they did something right.
    Players say stuff like this all the time. It doesn't make it true or real. And just because he believes it doesn't make it right. Wade Boggs sincerely thought fried chicken and beer helped his performance. My guess ... um, not so much.

    And there has to be a reason to justify something. To Ian Kennedy, I'm guessing it sounds better for that the reason to be Arizona working with him versus easier lineups in pitcher-friendly parks, you know? I just never buy much of what players say is responsible for success.

  16. #516

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheBorder79 View Post
    You bring up the Pirates ... Where is their ace? Look, for a few years, about five years ago, I was also all about the whole "not since Andy" thing. But then you start to look around. Who has developed aces that didn't go at the very top of the draft? Not many at all. That earlier post about this was brilliant. It's hard to find aces. Young pitchers get hurt. And we overvalue them as fans.

    If you went to this site a couple years ago, Betances and Banuelos were untouchable gods. Yet, a look at their numbers showed that control problems were always there. And they were very young and potential injuries were lurking. Five or so years ago, based on the Yanks' "development" there was a dude on here who posted about Hughes, Joba and Kennedy and Alan Horne all becoming the next Pedro Martinez (I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much) and tons of people on here agreed. Based on their numbers that happened in the Yanks farm system. Development was good then, I guess, when it fit folks' narrative of choice.

    Young pitching is an inexact science. Our failure to develop hasn't seemed to hurt us yet. Look at our competition in the division. Take away the Rays who have had some nice drafting spots, who have the others developed? Orioles? Let's see about Bundy before we anoint. The Red Sox? Lester's good, but other than him? The Blue Jays? Halliday and Carpenter (sort of)? I'm missing folks, I'm sure, but the point is that frontline pitching is hard and many of these guys don't even flourish till they're on the next stop (Carpenter, Wainwright, the aforementioned Haren) ...

    This idea that the Yanks ruined Joba is just completely unfounded. Could they have hurt his development? Sure. Maybe. You have no idea. Neither do I. Was Hughes destined to be Verlander if he only got drafted by someone else? Sure. Doubt it, but who knows? But there's no rational evidence.

    And you called Joba a diamond in the rough which makes no sense, but if true, why would Cashman not want credit for developing this diamond in the rough? Of course he would. Spite makes no sense. If Joba or some other young pitcher did well, Cash would be a drafting god. It only hurts him that Joba is a middling 7th inning pitcher that can't stay healthy.

    OK, done rambling. Hope folks can find some nugget of good stuff in there.
    It's hurting us now because the Yankees are relying on older picthers like Andy and Hiro to anchor the rotation. What happens when those guys retire next season and Hughes is looking for a big pay day. Cashman and Hal are banking on the young pitchers to provide high end cost controlled production.

    Besides Price how many of their other picks were top number 1 picks.
    Agree on Bundy
    The thing is the Yankees haven't even developed a guy like Lester. Forget front line ace where is a consistent number 3 type starter

    It's not unfounded they botched his development to the point they didn't even want to tinker with the idea of putting Manny in the pen a couple of seasons ago he were to come up and get his feet wet

  17. #517

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheBorder79 View Post
    Players say stuff like this all the time. It doesn't make it true or real. And just because he believes it doesn't make it right. Wade Boggs sincerely thought fried chicken and beer helped his performance. My guess ... um, not so much.

    And there has to be a reason to justify something. To Ian Kennedy, I'm guessing it sounds better for that the reason to be Arizona working with him versus easier lineups in pitcher-friendly parks, you know? I just never buy much of what players say is responsible for success.
    It might not make it right but if that's what helps him pitch well then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Fan in Boston View Post
    I'm not doubting that the D-Backs supported his development and helped him. I just think, when you look at his trajectory, it's hard to call him a turnaround or imply that the Yankees didn't play a big part in what he became.
    I don't agree but I see where you're coming from.

  18. #518
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    To be fair, the Yankees did develop Chien-Ming Wang, though they signed him as an IFA rather than through the draft. True, they didn't realize what they had until Jaret Wright got hurt, and a few years later they ruined Wang by botching his rehab so brutally. But in between, they had a reliable starting pitcher that they developed.
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  19. #519
    Please, call me YFiB Yankee Fan in Boston's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    It might not make it right but if that's what helps him pitch well then so be it.



    I don't agree but I see where you're coming from.
    It's fine to agree to disagree, but if you discount the Yankees part in his development you're kind of discounting everything a guy does before he reaches MLB
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  20. #520
    Don't call it a comeback False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    It's what Kennedy believes so he must feel like they did something right.
    The only thing we know (assuming there is a link somewhere) is that it is what he said. Doesn't prove a) it's what he believes or b) that what he believes is accurate. What was the "something"? They gave up Scherzer in that deal, a very talented arm they actually drafted ahead of Kennedy in '06, to get him.

    So again following this train of thought they Yankees get no credit for drafting/developing because the D'Backs did something in a few weeks the Yankees didn't do in a few injury-marred years and because Kennedy made a public comment about the team that is signing his paychecks. I don't buy it. My primary regret (which was posted at the time, and admittedly undervalued Jackson) in the Granderson trade was the inclusion of IPK. He wasn't a busted prospect. The only mistake I can see evidence of was that the Yankees ran out of patience with him, as many fans did, when he made comments about being happy with a specific pitching performance after he got rocked.

  21. #521
    The Sausage King of Chicago Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    The only mistake I can see evidence of was that the Yankees ran out of patience with him, as many fans did, when he made comments about being happy with a specific pitching performance after he got rocked.
    Thats it right there. That is the point that gets lost in all the different horror stories. The organization as well as the fanbase lacks patience when it comes to prospects.
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  22. #522

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    No they haven't. Their track record is fair maybe a little below that at best.

    Kennedy won 15 or so games for the Dbacks last yr. You can't count that.
    I'm counting it because Kennedy's development was complete when he left the Yankees, as others have pointed out. The best evidence we have is that he was a finished product when he arrived in Arizona.


  23. #523

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    The only thing we know (assuming there is a link somewhere) is that it is what he said. Doesn't prove a) it's what he believes or b) that what he believes is accurate. What was the "something"? They gave up Scherzer in that deal, a very talented arm they actually drafted ahead of Kennedy in '06, to get him.

    So again following this train of thought they Yankees get no credit for drafting/developing because the D'Backs did something in a few weeks the Yankees didn't do in a few injury-marred years and because Kennedy made a public comment about the team that is signing his paychecks. I don't buy it. My primary regret (which was posted at the time, and admittedly undervalued Jackson) in the Granderson trade was the inclusion of IPK. He wasn't a busted prospect. The only mistake I can see evidence of was that the Yankees ran out of patience with him, as many fans did, when he made comments about being happy with a specific pitching performance after he got rocked.
    The fact they ran out of patience with a 23-24 yr old in his first full yr of starting speaks volumes especially when the comments he made weren't that bad. Kennedy like most young players tasted failure for the first time in his career and he handled it the way many would.

  24. #524

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    I'm counting it because Kennedy's development was complete when he left the Yankees, as others have pointed out. The best evidence we have is that he was a finished product when he arrived in Arizona.
    I just don't see it that way. Many times fans cling onto players when they perform elsewhere as evidence that the organization develops players well.

  25. #525

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    The fact they ran out of patience with a 23-24 yr old in his first full yr of starting speaks volumes especially when the comments he made weren't that bad. Kennedy like most young players tasted failure for the first time in his career and he handled it the way many would.
    How did they run out of patience with Kennedy? You can't get good players in trade without giving up players. Trading players is not running out of patience.

    In general, though, this forum is a great example of why we don't have too many young players at a time. First, of course, big market teams need to use young players as trading chips because cheap players are more valuable to small market teams.

    But, more importantly, a team like the Yankees cannot afford bad seasons for many financial and public relations reasons. Veterans provide predictability. Think of all the "can't miss" prospects we've had over the years. If we gave a chance to all those guys, a team filled with the Eric Duncans, Jeff Marquezs, Andrew Brackmans, Delin Betances, Jose Tabatas of the world, I'm pretty sure 2009 would not have happened and we'd have had some bad years.

    Yes, as someone wrote, we know have a team reliant on older pitchers like Andy and Kuroda. But we did last year too, and we had a pretty damn good season.

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