2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

[Kingofkings19]

Dream is a good way to describe a scenario where 3 prospects become anchors in the rotation because it isn't likely to happen. That makes it puzzling that you blame the front office for them not fulfilling your dream. Most prospects don't hit their ceilings. It was never a guarantee that handled by anyone anyway these pitchers were going to stay healthy and effective as they dealt with workloads and competition levels unlike anything they had ever encountered before.

It wasn't even a worst case scenario. There are any number of highly touted pitching prospects who weren't even playing baseball this far into their careers.

Not his dream...Cashman's dream he was the one telling the world the big three were going to be the future of the Yankee rotation. He's the one that said Joba would be their Josh Beckett or Justin Verlander and now he's a middle reliever.

[Kingofkings19]

Look around, I really do mean look around, majority of teams have produced even less with their better draft picks.

Orioles for example... Matusz and Jim Johnson.

I like our combo of Hughes and DRob better.

True but most produce at least one guy that hits their ceiling.

[sweet_lou_14]

You did notice that I prefaced my "blame" with the line "stories you tell you grandkids".

It sounds a lot like you're saying you intend to just make stuff up when you tell stories to your grandchildren.

[grizy]

True but most produce at least one guy that hits their ceiling.

Not really. Most pitching prospects don't get anywhere near their ceiling. If they did, we'd have a lot more "ace" pitchers in MLB.

[THEBOSS84]

This is the best I've seen Joba look in a while.

[Kingofkings19]

Not really. Most pitching prospects don't get anywhere near their ceiling. If they did, we'd have a lot more "ace" pitchers in MLB.

My point is most teams produce at least one pitcher that they can hang their hat on. Yankees haven't done that since Pettitte.

[rajah]

This is the best I've seen Joba look in a while.

Yes, indeed. He seems to be coming around. That would be great for the pen.

[JL25and3]

My point is most teams produce at least one pitcher that they can hang their hat on. Yankees haven't done that since Pettitte.

Most teams?
I suppose it depends on whether you give credit to an organization for a pitcher they produced who's now pitching elsewhere, or for a pitcher whom they acquired as a minor-leaguer. It also depends on whether you want to "hang your hat" on people like Adam Wainwright or Josh Johnson. At best, I'd say about half the current teams have a homegrown pitcher they can "hang their hat on."

That's not to endorse the Yankee organization's development of young pitchers, which I think has worked out poorly. But it's not like everyone else has a homegrown ace.

[sweet_lou_14]

Most teams?
I suppose it depends on whether you give credit to an organization for a pitcher they produced who's now pitching elsewhere, or for a pitcher whom they acquired as a minor-leaguer. It also depends on whether you want to "hang your hat" on people like Adam Wainwright or Josh Johnson. At best, I'd say about half the current teams have a homegrown pitcher they can "hang their hat on."

That's not to endorse the Yankee organization's development of young pitchers, which I think has worked out poorly. But it's not like everyone else has a homegrown ace.

Even those who do develop one might not be "hanging their hat on them" for long. We may already have seen the best of Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz, for example. (Not that Buchholz was ever called an ace, but his ceiling has often been pegged there.)

[grizy]

David Price and Lester are pretty much it in ALEast I think, as far as home grown aces go.

[SatchelPaigeYankee]

David Price and Lester are pretty much it in ALEast I think, as far as home grown aces go.

Hellickson? 3.15 ERA over the 376 IP of his career.

Shields and Romero are borderline. Probably best labeled as #2s.

[grizy]

If I count Hellickson, I have to count CMW as a success too.

I think he is a success story of the Yankees farm (minus the botched rehab.) I just don't think it's what Kingofkings had in mind.

[JL25and3]

In the AL, I was giving credit for Price, Lester/Buchholz (assuming one bouces back), Sale, Verlander, Harrison, Weaver, Hernandez. Sale is a strong candidate for a setback next year, given his massive increase in IP this year.

In the NL, I had Strasburg, Hamels (for now), Cueto, Gallardo, Cain/Bumgarner, Kershaw. If you're feeling lucky, Johnson and Wainwright.

[Kingofkings19]

If I count Hellickson, I have to count CMW as a success too.

I think he is a success story of the Yankees farm (minus the botched rehab.) I just don't think it's what Kingofkings had in mind.

I'm not just talking about homegrown aces what about a 2 or even a 3.

[The_Man_With_No_Plan]

He should still be a starter.

[ieddyi]

I don't think developing aces should be the only criteria

What about the rest of the rotation

Tampa Bay's entire rotation is home grown, no? It's the reason they never really go away in terms of the division. When one goes on the DL, they bring up another good arm from the minors

Oakland has done a great job in that regard also

W/o the ability to spend in the international and US drafts player development becomes even more important and the Yanks have underperformed

[jcarey]

In the AL, I was giving credit for Price, Lester/Buchholz (assuming one bouces back), Sale, Verlander, Harrison, Weaver, Hernandez. Sale is a strong candidate for a setback next year, given his massive increase in IP this year.

In the NL, I had Strasburg, Hamels (for now), Cueto, Gallardo, Cain/Bumgarner, Kershaw. If you're feeling lucky, Johnson and Wainwright.

I'd kick out Harrison, but I'd maybe include Tommy Hanson if he had stayed healthy this year.

Strasburg almost shouldn't count. How do you screw him up?

[JL25and3]

I'd kick out Harrison, but I'd maybe include Tommy Hanson if he had stayed healthy this year.

Strasburg almost shouldn't count. How do you screw him up?

Do you kick out Harrison because he spent his first five years in Atlanta's system? I thought about that, but figured that Texas has now had enough time to finish developing him well or poorly. I could go either way on that one, though. As for Hanson, I suspect he's still recovering from his shoulder injury, never mind his back. He wasn't that great this year, but if he comes back strong next year, I'm with you.

You can quibble about any of the details, but I think the basic point - about half rather than "most" - holds true.

[Kingofkings19]

He should still be a starter.

This but that ship has sailed. It's ok though the team can't have enough middle relievers.

I don't think developing aces should be the only criteria

What about the rest of the rotation

Tampa Bay's entire rotation is home grown, no? It's the reason they never really go away in terms of the division. When one goes on the DL, they bring up another good arm from the minors

Oakland has done a great job in that regard also

W/o the ability to spend in the international and US drafts player development becomes even more important and the Yanks have underperformed

Exactly it's not why can't we have a rotation with five aces. It's about building an effective rotation. Wasn't the plan to surround CC with young arms that we good but don't cost much.

[sweet_lou_14]

Exactly it's not why can't we have a rotation with five aces. It's about building an effective rotation. Wasn't the plan to surround CC with young arms that we good but don't cost much.

Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.

[just-blaze]

Hellickson? 3.15 ERA over the 376 IP of his career.

Shields and Romero are borderline. Probably best labeled as #2s.

ERA is the only metric to define an ace? Because that's the only way Hellickson could get that honor.

For someone who argued that slugging is inferior to isoP (and rightfully so), I hope not.

[ieddyi]

Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.

Sure, but the point is how effective have they been @ it?

Compare the number of rotation spots filled by home grown players since Cashman got greater control in 2005 to the same period for the Rays ( even factoring in their run of high draft picks ). They've done a much better job.

Hughes is certainly a plus in terms of filling a 3/4 rotation spot, but he had historically good minor league numbers- thus the higher bar he is judged by. I still think Nova will be a much more productive pitcher. Banuelos and Bteances ( big time ) have regressed. Remember Brackman? Pineda was a trade- not a home grown player

Again, with the advantage we had in international drafting and the ability to pay over slot in the US draft, we reasonably expected better results

[THEBOSS84]

Compare the number of rotation spots filled by home grown players since Cashman got greater control in 2005 to the same period for the Rays ( even factoring in their run of high draft picks ). They've done a much better job.

Matt Moore - 8th rounder
Hellickson - 4th rounder
Shields - 16th round

[Kingofkings19]

Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.

They went whole-heartedly after the plan but the results have been mixed to say the least.

[snapple]

I personally like how the Yankees have been doing things. Pay for the bats. If anything Philly has shown us, it's that 5 aces means squat if you don't have any bats.