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  1. #276

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by K-W View Post
    Dream is a good way to describe a scenario where 3 prospects become anchors in the rotation because it isn't likely to happen. That makes it puzzling that you blame the front office for them not fulfilling your dream. Most prospects don't hit their ceilings. It was never a guarantee that handled by anyone anyway these pitchers were going to stay healthy and effective as they dealt with workloads and competition levels unlike anything they had ever encountered before.

    It wasn't even a worst case scenario. There are any number of highly touted pitching prospects who weren't even playing baseball this far into their careers.

    Not his dream...Cashman's dream he was the one telling the world the big three were going to be the future of the Yankee rotation. He's the one that said Joba would be their Josh Beckett or Justin Verlander and now he's a middle reliever.

  2. #277

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Look around, I really do mean look around, majority of teams have produced even less with their better draft picks.

    Orioles for example... Matusz and Jim Johnson.

    I like our combo of Hughes and DRob better.
    True but most produce at least one guy that hits their ceiling.

  3. #278

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LIYanks View Post
    You did notice that I prefaced my "blame" with the line "stories you tell you grandkids".
    It sounds a lot like you're saying you intend to just make stuff up when you tell stories to your grandchildren.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  4. #279

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    True but most produce at least one guy that hits their ceiling.
    Not really. Most pitching prospects don't get anywhere near their ceiling. If they did, we'd have a lot more "ace" pitchers in MLB.

  5. #280
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    This is the best I've seen Joba look in a while.

  6. #281

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    Not really. Most pitching prospects don't get anywhere near their ceiling. If they did, we'd have a lot more "ace" pitchers in MLB.
    My point is most teams produce at least one pitcher that they can hang their hat on. Yankees haven't done that since Pettitte.

  7. #282

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This is the best I've seen Joba look in a while.
    Yes, indeed. He seems to be coming around. That would be great for the pen.

  8. #283
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    My point is most teams produce at least one pitcher that they can hang their hat on. Yankees haven't done that since Pettitte.
    Most teams?
    I suppose it depends on whether you give credit to an organization for a pitcher they produced who's now pitching elsewhere, or for a pitcher whom they acquired as a minor-leaguer. It also depends on whether you want to "hang your hat" on people like Adam Wainwright or Josh Johnson. At best, I'd say about half the current teams have a homegrown pitcher they can "hang their hat on."

    That's not to endorse the Yankee organization's development of young pitchers, which I think has worked out poorly. But it's not like everyone else has a homegrown ace.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  9. #284

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Most teams?
    I suppose it depends on whether you give credit to an organization for a pitcher they produced who's now pitching elsewhere, or for a pitcher whom they acquired as a minor-leaguer. It also depends on whether you want to "hang your hat" on people like Adam Wainwright or Josh Johnson. At best, I'd say about half the current teams have a homegrown pitcher they can "hang their hat on."

    That's not to endorse the Yankee organization's development of young pitchers, which I think has worked out poorly. But it's not like everyone else has a homegrown ace.
    Even those who do develop one might not be "hanging their hat on them" for long. We may already have seen the best of Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz, for example. (Not that Buchholz was ever called an ace, but his ceiling has often been pegged there.)
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  10. #285

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    David Price and Lester are pretty much it in ALEast I think, as far as home grown aces go.

  11. #286

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    David Price and Lester are pretty much it in ALEast I think, as far as home grown aces go.
    Hellickson? 3.15 ERA over the 376 IP of his career.

    Shields and Romero are borderline. Probably best labeled as #2s.
    like delv, but better

  12. #287

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    If I count Hellickson, I have to count CMW as a success too.

    I think he is a success story of the Yankees farm (minus the botched rehab.) I just don't think it's what Kingofkings had in mind.

  13. #288
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    In the AL, I was giving credit for Price, Lester/Buchholz (assuming one bouces back), Sale, Verlander, Harrison, Weaver, Hernandez. Sale is a strong candidate for a setback next year, given his massive increase in IP this year.

    In the NL, I had Strasburg, Hamels (for now), Cueto, Gallardo, Cain/Bumgarner, Kershaw. If you're feeling lucky, Johnson and Wainwright.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #289

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by grizy View Post
    If I count Hellickson, I have to count CMW as a success too.

    I think he is a success story of the Yankees farm (minus the botched rehab.) I just don't think it's what Kingofkings had in mind.

    I'm not just talking about homegrown aces what about a 2 or even a 3.

  15. #290

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    He should still be a starter.

  16. #291

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    I don't think developing aces should be the only criteria

    What about the rest of the rotation

    Tampa Bay's entire rotation is home grown, no? It's the reason they never really go away in terms of the division. When one goes on the DL, they bring up another good arm from the minors

    Oakland has done a great job in that regard also

    W/o the ability to spend in the international and US drafts player development becomes even more important and the Yanks have underperformed
    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGRESSIVE

  17. #292

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    In the AL, I was giving credit for Price, Lester/Buchholz (assuming one bouces back), Sale, Verlander, Harrison, Weaver, Hernandez. Sale is a strong candidate for a setback next year, given his massive increase in IP this year.

    In the NL, I had Strasburg, Hamels (for now), Cueto, Gallardo, Cain/Bumgarner, Kershaw. If you're feeling lucky, Johnson and Wainwright.
    I'd kick out Harrison, but I'd maybe include Tommy Hanson if he had stayed healthy this year.

    Strasburg almost shouldn't count. How do you screw him up?


  18. #293
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    I'd kick out Harrison, but I'd maybe include Tommy Hanson if he had stayed healthy this year.

    Strasburg almost shouldn't count. How do you screw him up?
    Do you kick out Harrison because he spent his first five years in Atlanta's system? I thought about that, but figured that Texas has now had enough time to finish developing him well or poorly. I could go either way on that one, though. As for Hanson, I suspect he's still recovering from his shoulder injury, never mind his back. He wasn't that great this year, but if he comes back strong next year, I'm with you.

    You can quibble about any of the details, but I think the basic point - about half rather than "most" - holds true.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  19. #294

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    He should still be a starter.
    This but that ship has sailed. It's ok though the team can't have enough middle relievers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post
    I don't think developing aces should be the only criteria

    What about the rest of the rotation

    Tampa Bay's entire rotation is home grown, no? It's the reason they never really go away in terms of the division. When one goes on the DL, they bring up another good arm from the minors

    Oakland has done a great job in that regard also

    W/o the ability to spend in the international and US drafts player development becomes even more important and the Yanks have underperformed
    Exactly it's not why can't we have a rotation with five aces. It's about building an effective rotation. Wasn't the plan to surround CC with young arms that we good but don't cost much.

  20. #295

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingofkings19 View Post
    Exactly it's not why can't we have a rotation with five aces. It's about building an effective rotation. Wasn't the plan to surround CC with young arms that we good but don't cost much.
    Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

    What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  21. #296
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SatchelPaigeYankee View Post
    Hellickson? 3.15 ERA over the 376 IP of his career.

    Shields and Romero are borderline. Probably best labeled as #2s.
    ERA is the only metric to define an ace? Because that's the only way Hellickson could get that honor.

    For someone who argued that slugging is inferior to isoP (and rightfully so), I hope not.
    Fistpumping like a champion.

  22. #297

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

    What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.
    Sure, but the point is how effective have they been @ it?

    Compare the number of rotation spots filled by home grown players since Cashman got greater control in 2005 to the same period for the Rays ( even factoring in their run of high draft picks ). They've done a much better job.

    Hughes is certainly a plus in terms of filling a 3/4 rotation spot, but he had historically good minor league numbers- thus the higher bar he is judged by. I still think Nova will be a much more productive pitcher. Banuelos and Bteances ( big time ) have regressed. Remember Brackman? Pineda was a trade- not a home grown player

    Again, with the advantage we had in international drafting and the ability to pay over slot in the US draft, we reasonably expected better results
    MICRO PASSIVE/MICRO AGRESSIVE

  23. #298
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    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi View Post

    Compare the number of rotation spots filled by home grown players since Cashman got greater control in 2005 to the same period for the Rays ( even factoring in their run of high draft picks ). They've done a much better job.
    Matt Moore - 8th rounder
    Hellickson - 4th rounder
    Shields - 16th round

  24. #299

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Hughes, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, other arms waiting in the system ... the depth is there, and the expectations were certainly there at least before the 2012 season. But as we're seeing, it takes a lot of patience to stick with this plan. Hughes has done better than a lot of fans' revised expectations of him, and better than many want to recognize; Nova has taken steps back. Pineda got hurt. Banuelos and Betances are struggling through their own injuries and performance issues. But you can't seriously argue the Yankees didn't go whole-heartedly after the plan to develop and/or import young pitching.

    What the Yankees have done (one-year deals to veterans like Pettitte, Kuroda, and Garcia) is actually a brilliant way to give the plan a chance to succeed without sacrificing short-term competitiveness.
    They went whole-heartedly after the plan but the results have been mixed to say the least.

  25. #300

    Re: 2012 Joba Chamberlain Performance Thread

    I personally like how the Yankees have been doing things. Pay for the bats. If anything Philly has shown us, it's that 5 aces means squat if you don't have any bats.
    EvilEmpireDC: Fans bitch about anything lol

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