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  1. #26
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    shouldn't he be in jail then?
    .lol.
    I'm in your thread, stealing RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees' identity.

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  2. #27
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I don't think it does, it just means he didn't get caught lying to congress about it. You believe or you don't believe this case wasn't going to matter.
    Personally, I'd tend to vote for HOF regardless of PED use, because MLB willingly turned a blind eye to it for so long. They went wild over the McGwire-Sosa slugfest in 1998, at a time when offense was exploding and heads were expanding so dramatically that they had to have had some suspicions (the bottle of andro in McGwire's locker might have been a tipoff as well). But instead they just milked it for all the publicity and money they could, hailing McGwire and Sosa as heroes, ignoring the evidence, and essentially encouraging more widespread PED use. And they still continued to ignore it - read what the Mitchell report says about Brian Sabean, and explain to me how he's still allowed to work in baseball.

    It was only when it served MLB's purposes - that is, when CBA negotiations started rolling around again - that they were suddenly shocked, shocked! to discover that players had been using PEDs.

    I know plenty of players from that era were entirely clean, but I also assume that any of them might have used at some point. I'd vote for McGwire for the HOF, never mind Clemens.
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  3. #28
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Personally, I'd tend to vote for HOF regardless of PED use, because MLB willingly turned a blind eye to it for so long. They went wild over the McGwire-Sosa slugfest in 1998, at a time when offense was exploding and heads were expanding so dramatically that they had to have had some suspicions (the bottle of andro in McGwire's locker might have been a tipoff as well). But instead they just milked it for all the publicity and money they could, hailing McGwire and Sosa as heroes, ignoring the evidence, and essentially encouraging more widespread PED use. And they still continued to ignore it - read what the Mitchell report says about Brian Sabean, and explain to me how he's still allowed to work in baseball.

    It was only when it served MLB's purposes - that is, when CBA negotiations started rolling around again - that they were suddenly shocked, shocked! to discover that players had been using PEDs.

    I know plenty of players from that era were entirely clean, but I also assume that any of them might have used at some point. I'd vote for McGwire for the HOF, never mind Clemens.
    I agree that they should go in if they have the numbers, PED use or not. But for different reasons. I really don't have a problem with PED use.

    I should read up on Sabean. You interest me.
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  4. #29

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by EvanJ View Post
    "Well did you know when you were famous you could kill your wife
    And there's no such thing as 25 to life
    As long as you've got the cash, to pay for Cochran"
    If his hat still fits you must acquit.
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  5. #30
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Shouldn't he be in jail then?
    No. When it's one liar's word against another liar's word, reasonable doubt will prevail.

  6. #31

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    (the dove was a joke)

  7. #32

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    A jury didn't think so.
    Not necessarily, they just didn't think it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he lied. Sort of an extension of what JL said re: not guilty as opposed to innocent.
    "We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."

  8. #33
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    I followed it loosely but from what i read, that sounded like some effed up trial. Judge yelling at the prosecution for not doing their job right...jurors falling asleep left and right...and the jurors got to submit questions to witnesses - is that normal? very odd...

    I thought the whole thing was a joke and of course there's going to be reasonable doubt when your star witness is mcnamee. Do i think he probably did it? yes..but i can see why he was acquitted...

    Now i'm wondering if the wife will leave him since the trial is over - he was with that young singer for quite a long time among other - i dont know how you get past that in a marriage.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" ...Frank Costanza

  9. #34
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b-ball-lunachick View Post
    I followed it loosely but from what i read, that sounded like some effed up trial. Judge yelling at the prosecution for not doing their job right...jurors falling asleep left and right...and the jurors got to submit questions to witnesses - is that normal? very odd...

    I thought the whole thing was a joke and of course there's going to be reasonable doubt when your star witness is mcnamee. Do i think he probably did it? yes..but i can see why he was acquitted...

    Now i'm wondering if the wife will leave him since the trial is over - he was with that young singer for quite a long time among other - i dont know how you get past that in a marriage.
    I agree, I think he probably did it. That means I would have to vote to acquit.

  10. #35
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    If his hat still fits you must acquit.
    I can't let that one go by without acknowledgement.
    .Of all the things in life I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

  11. #36

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I agree, I think he probably did it. That means I would have to vote to acquit.
    You wouldnt even convict a hot dob.

  12. #37
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees13 View Post
    The whole Congressional steroid investigation was idiotic, but once he rather brazenly lied under oath they had no choice but to go after him.
    I think it was more about saving face. I mean with all the Detroit and bank bailouts, wars in several countries, why in the world does the US Government need to go after a baseball player?

    Because he possibly lied under oath? I'd bet that he's in good company with those who are already in office in DC, and who will remain in office.
    /soapbox
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  13. #38

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Especially since the question he perjured himself on was basically "please willingly destroy your reputation and legacy so that we can verify some absolutely trivial nonsense." Honestly, the hubris of these clowns is staggering. And such utter sanctimony, to boot. If there were a pill I could take that would make me measurably better at my job, as well as rich and famous, I'd absolutely take it. When you're competing at the level these guys are, the number of guys who wouldn't try to get that edge, especially knowing how common it was, has to be minuscule. And given that the league more or less promoted the behavior, I'm having a hard time giving a damn at all. Yeah, Clemens juiced, but so did most of the batters he struck out.

  14. #39
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Especially since the question he perjured himself on was basically "please willingly destroy your reputation and legacy so that we can verify some absolutely trivial nonsense." Honestly, the hubris of these clowns is staggering. And such utter sanctimony, to boot. If there were a pill I could take that would make me measurably better at my job, as well as rich and famous, I'd absolutely take it. When you're competing at the level these guys are, the number of guys who wouldn't try to get that edge, especially knowing how common it was, has to be minuscule. And given that the league more or less promoted the behavior, I'm having a hard time giving a damn at all. Yeah, Clemens juiced, but so did most of the batters he struck out.
    When I remember first reading about steroids, I remember that people in the following sports were notorious abusers:

    NFL
    Bodybuilding
    Powerlifting

    I guess that the NBA & NFL have escaped serious suspicion. Guys get hit ridiculously hard in American football, so I guess that recovery time may be the reason.

    I'm not sure what steroids did for bodybuilders, but its use has long been rampant.

    For powerlifters (they do the parallel squat, bench press and deadlift), they do the "total", meaning the greatest of these three combined lifts. For this sport, I think that the improvements were most results-based. If a top pro's "total" was, say, 1,500 lbs (some guys have totalled well over 2,000 lbs), anything such as a 5% increase would change this to 1,575 lbs. That could definitely put a good distance between a winner and someone who doesn't even make 3rd place. That's why there were the so-called "natural" lifter categories, meaning that lifters would be tested for steroids and would have to remain "clean" to lift in those leagues.

    I also don't see much logic in the US Congress taking athletes to court. Perhaps each league should consider their own action, but wasting the US Government's role on this seems wasteful.

    It could just be the IRS that wanted its money, since one of the many things being charged was failure to pay taxes when someone sold steroids, since the ill-gotten gains were almost never reported.
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  15. #40
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Why was Congress involved? It all comes down to this--baseball's antitrust exemption:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/bu...ational_League

    This sheds a little light on it also:
    http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/steroids.htm
    The Government Reform Committee is charged as the "principal investigative committee of the House," which gives it the authority to conduct hearings on any subject falling under the jurisdiction of Congress. The Federally Controlled Substances Act, regulates the use of performance enhancing drugs, including steroids. In addition, Major League Baseball has been exempt from most federal anti-trust laws laws since 1922, when the Supreme Court ruled in its favor in Federal Baseball Club of Baltimore, Inc. v. National Baseball Clubs. The exemption prevents teams for suing if they are not granted the right to change locations at will. While its exemption from anti-trust laws has nothing to do with steroid use by players, it does place the affairs of Major League Baseball squarely under the jurisdiction of Congress.
    While I understand that Congress had the jurisdiction to investigate the use of steroids in baseball, do I think that Congress' choosing to do so was a wise use of taxpayers' dollars? No I do not.

  16. #41
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I agree that they should go in if they have the numbers, PED use or not. But for different reasons. I really don't have a problem with PED use.

    I should read up on Sabean. You interest me.
    Here's my favorite part. "Conte" is Stan Conte, Giants head trainer at the time; "Anderson" is Greg Anderson, one of Bonds's personal trainers and a supplier from BALCO. I apologize for the length of the excerpt, but I think it's worth it.

    [FONT=Times]In August 2002, the Giants were visiting Atlanta for a series with the Braves. At the time, Anderson was traveling with the Giants. Conte recalls that during this series a Giants player asked Conte about anabolic steroids. Conte refused to identify the player to us, citing athletic trainer privilege. According to Conte, the player told him that he was considering obtaining steroids from Greg Anderson and wanted to know the health issues associated with the use of steroids. In response, Conte explained at some length the health hazards of steroid use and lectured the player about the unfairness to other players posed by the illicit use of steroids. Conte believed that it was “a good lecture” and that he put considerable doubt in the player’s mind.

    Conte stated that he reported the incident to general manager Brian Sabean within an hour of its occurrence. He told Sabean he was concerned that Anderson might be distributing steroids to Giants players. While he refused to identify the player who had approached him, Conte otherwise described the conversation to Sabean in detail. Sabean suggested Conte confront Anderson and Bonds about the matter, which Conte refused to do. In Conte’s view, it was not the responsibility of the athletic trainer to address such an issue.

    Sabean confirmed in his interview that Conte’s recollection of their conversation was accurate. He also acknowledged that he did not raise the issue with Bonds or Anderson. Instead, he asked Conte if he knew anyone who could “check out” Anderson. Conte said that he knew a Drug Enforcement Administration agent, and Sabean suggested Conte call the agent to check into Anderson. The DEA agent later told Conte that he did not find any information about Anderson. Conte relayed this to Sabean.

    Sabean told me that he believed that if Anderson was in fact selling drugs illegally the government would have known about it. So when he received the report from Conte, Sabean did not report the issue to anyone in the Giants organization or the Commissioner’s Office, he did not confront Bonds or Anderson, and he did not take any steps to prohibit Anderson from gaining access to Giants facilities. Sabean said that he was not aware at the time of the Major League Baseball policy that required him to report information regarding a player’s drug use to the Commissioner’s Office.

    Sabean explained that he was in a very difficult situation regarding disclosure of this information because, as a result of the clubhouse culture in baseball, he felt he could not risk “outing” Conte as the source of the information. He said that if he had insisted on Anderson’s ouster from the clubhouse, Bonds would have vigorously objected, just as he did when the Giants tried to bar Harvey Shields in response to the later (February 2004) mandate from the Commissioner’s Office barring personal trainers from restricted areas...

    Peter Magowan, the Giants’ managing partner and chief executive officer, recalled asking Sabean directly whether the Giants “had a problem” after reading the news reports of the BALCO raids. Magowan said that what he meant by his inquiry was to ask whether the Giants had a problem with Anderson dispensing steroids; he wanted to know whether Sabean had any reason to know of such a problem. According to Magowan, Sabean responded that he was not aware of any problem the Giants might have. However, Sabean strongly denied that such a conversation occurred.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  17. #42
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees13 View Post
    Can't believe he beat the Feds. Hate to sound like a cynic but just goes to show if you have the money for the best lawyers you can beat almost any rap.
    That, or if the only evidence that is put forth is a needle stored in a beer can in the possession of a complete dirt bag with a hatchet to bury. I am pretty certain that guys without the millions that Clemens had could have beat that rap.

  18. #43
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Dalkowski View Post
    Yeah like enforcing crimes against perjury and stuff.
    I get what you're saying, but this entire show was a complete and utter waste of money. If I had to bet, I'd say he did perjure himself. But he never should have been allowed to put himself in that position, and when the evidence wasn't strong the charges never should have been brought.

  19. #44
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    If his hat still fits you must acquit.


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  20. #45
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    If his hat still fits you must acquit.
    I was just about to say that I think Clemens is as guilty as O.J.Simpson.....then I read this. Post of the year, so far.

    MLB is the model of hypocrisy with regard to PED use. There is no way it could not have known what was going on, but as long as the McGuire-Sosa lovefest was in high gear, they road the gravy train. I was one of the passengers, sitting there in front of the TV, enjoying the hell out of it. SI chose both of them as co-winners of the Sportsman of the Year award, appearing on the cover draped in white togas, looking every bit the part of noble Roman gladiators. So now, that pandora's box has been opened, MLB is playing the part of disciplinarian, handing out suspensions, fines and bad press for those who fail random testing. I find it incredible at this point that players are still trying to beat the system, but given the outcome of this trial, why shouldn't they? Why not ban them for life on the first offense? It's not like testing just started yesterday.

    I wonder if the jury would have voted differently if Pettitte hadn't changed his testimony to not being sure exactly what was said.
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  21. #46

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Really scary that alleged steroid use gets all this attention, and nobody even seems to remember that he also allegedly had an affair with a 15 year old.

  22. #47

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by BennyTheJetRodriguez View Post
    Really scary that alleged steroid use gets all this attention, and nobody even seems to remember that he also allegedly had an affair with a 15 year old.
    Anxiously awaiting for Mr. Coffee's acquit liner for this one.


  23. #48

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by just-blaze View Post
    Over baseball. My bad. Money well spent.


    Spot on.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
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  24. #49

    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    If his hat still fits you must acquit.
    Perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I agree, I think he probably did it. That means I would have to vote to acquit.
    Not necessarily. "Reasonable doubt" doesn't mean that you have to be 100% certain that he did it to vote him guilty. It's not the same thing as having zero doubt as to his guilt. I have been corrected on this point many times when watching crime shows.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
    -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

  25. #50
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    Re: Clemens Not Guilty on ALL Charges

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    "Not guilty" isn't the same thing as "innocent."
    ^ This. Now, just go away Roger.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

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