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  1. #1

    Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Doing so would enable them to call up another bat, like Mustelier or Branyan, without losing Wise as a competent backup CFer and OF defensive replacement-pinch runner.

    Do they really need both Phelps and Garcia given the length the starting rotation is providing?

    I know that Phelps will probably be demoted when D Rob comes back. But wouldn't another bat be more valuable than Epply as well as long as the starters are performing well?

  2. #2

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Doing so would enable them to call up another bat, like Mustelier or Branyan, without losing Wise as a competent backup CFer and OF defensive replacement-pinch runner.

    Do they really need both Phelps and Garcia given the length the starting rotation is providing?

    I know that Phelps will probably be demoted when D Rob comes back. But wouldn't another bat be more valuable than Epply as well as long as the starters are performing well?
    Hell, some want Wise gone for Dickerson. I hope it's Epply that's demoted instead of Phelps. Frankly, I don't quite understand Girardi's usage of him and I'm not talking about when Garcia was gone from the team.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  3. #3
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Doing so would enable them to call up another bat, like Mustelier or Branyan, without losing Wise as a competent backup CFer and OF defensive replacement-pinch runner.

    Do they really need both Phelps and Garcia given the length the starting rotation is providing?

    I know that Phelps will probably be demoted when D Rob comes back. But wouldn't another bat be more valuable than Epply as well as long as the starters are performing well?
    Wise is useless

    Branyan can't field a position

    I know nothing about Mustelier.

    I agree with 62 - would rather see Epply gone when D-Rob comes back.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  4. #4

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Wise is not useless, at least not in the absence of Gardner. Ibanez and Nix are both defensive liabilities in the OF, and there is no backup CFer in the absence of Wise, or usually even a decent pinch runner. Wise can't hit; Branyan can't field. So together they are a complete ball player and can contribute as much as one. The question is whether that is more valuable than a 12th pitcher.

    Sure Wise could be replaced by Dickerson, but Dickerson is out of options and probably would not then be available as insurance when released after Gardner's return. In any event, Dickerson doesn't really help the offense and would not avoid the same question I asked about whether another bat like Branyan or Mustelier would be more attractive than a 12th pitcher, whoever you think is the 12th pitcher on this team, or will be when D Rob returns.

    The question really is whether the Yankees would not benefit more from a 13th positional player with Gardner on the DL and the rotation all going deep into games.

  5. #5
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Wise is not useless, at least not in the absence of Gardner. Ibanez and Nix are both defensive liabilities in the OF, and there is no backup CFer in the absence of Wise, or usually even a decent pinch runner. Wise can't hit; Branyan can't field. So together they are a complete ball player and can contribute as much as one. The question is whether that is more valuable than a 12th pitcher.
    In the absense of another CF yes he has some minimal value.

    Sure Wise could be replaced by Dickerson, but Dickerson is out of options and probably would not then be available as insurance when released after Gardner's return. In any event, Dickerson doesn't really help the offense and would not avoid the same question I asked about whether another bat like Branyan or Mustelier would be more attractive than a 12th pitcher, whoever you think is the 12th pitcher on this team, or will be when D Rob returns.
    Dickerson is not someone I would lose sleep over if he had to be DFA'd when Gardner returns.

    I thought it interesting that Mustelier and Russo were both in SWB OF today.

    Branyan is nice but a we already have too many PH types who can't (or shouldn't) regularly play the field.
    The question really is whether the Yankees would not benefit more from a 13th positional player with Gardner on the DL and the rotation all going deep into games.
    Maybe durring inter league but not really once that's over.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  6. #6

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    In the absense of another CF yes he has some minimal value.
    If by "some minimal value" you mean "the only other guy on the roster who can play CF" then yeah. There's no way you can get rid of Wise without Gardner or some other option to take his spot.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  7. #7

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Hell, some want Wise gone for Dickerson. I hope it's Epply that's demoted instead of Phelps. Frankly, I don't quite understand Girardi's usage of him and I'm not talking about when Garcia was gone from the team.
    I think it's going to Phelps sent down based on how much Girardi has used him unless a trade takes place on Friday.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  8. #8

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    I want Wise gone for Dickerson. But I'm also a fanboy.

  9. #9

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    I want Wise gone for Dickerson. But I'm also a fanboy.
    As a fan of the Yankees, I want Dickerson, the better player in every facet of the game, to remain on the team over Wise.

  10. #10

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    As a fan of the Yankees, I want Dickerson, the better player in every facet of the game, to remain on the team over Wise.
    When he's been up before, I believe they've only used him in LF/RF ... if he can play CF too, why not. But it's not like Wise is costing this team games.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  11. #11

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    When he's been up before, I believe they've only used him in LF/RF ... if he can play CF too, why not. But it's not like Wise is costing this team games.
    1) Dickerson can play CF. In fact, he's a better defender than Wise.
    2) Wise will produce fewer runs on offense and prevent fewer runs on defense than Dickerson. He's costing the team runs, which lead to wins.

  12. #12
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    When he's been up before, I believe they've only used him in LF/RF ... if he can play CF too, why not. But it's not like Wise is costing this team games.
    Actually, I think Wise is doing exactly what he's been asked to do.
    A defense replacement and a sometimes pinch runner.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  13. #13

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Actually, I think Wise is doing exactly what he's been asked to do.
    A defense replacement and a sometimes pinch runner.
    Over the course of his career, Wise is a below-average baserunner. Dickerson is a better fielder and baserunner, not to mention being dramatically better as a hitter.

  14. #14
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Over the course of his career, Wise is a below-average baserunner. Dickerson is a better fielder and baserunner, not to mention being dramatically better as a hitter.
    How are you measuring baserunning?

    Anyway - the people that evaluate players for a living believe that Wise is a better option for some reason.
    Neither player is of any impact whatsoever, so I'll just go back and say, as long as Wise is doing his job, I'm OK with him being on the club. When Wise's role becomes larger for some reason, I will then rethink my position.
    But until then, that spot on the roster is a total non-factor.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  15. #15

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    How are you measuring baserunning?

    Anyway - the people that evaluate players for a living believe that Wise is a better option for some reason.
    Neither player is of any impact whatsoever, so I'll just go back and say, as long as Wise is doing his job, I'm OK with him being on the club. When Wise's role becomes larger for some reason, I will then rethink my position.
    But until then, that spot on the roster is a total non-factor.
    I'm using Fangraph's BsR. Wise is 5.4 runs below average over the course of his career. What this probably means is that he makes either makes too many outs on the basepaths by being too aggressive, or he leaves too many runs out there by not being aggressive enough. There's more to it than just speed and stolen bases.

    If we're just supposed to defer to whatever management does, then it doesn't seem like there's much sense to having this website, now does there?

    There's 0 reason to keep Wise over Dickerson. Dickerson is better in every facet of the game of baseball. Even if your argument is that it doesn't matter because the guy isn't getting that much PT, wouldn't it be better if a better player got those reps instead?

  16. #16
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    I'm using Fangraph's BsR. Wise is 5.4 runs below average over the course of his career. What this probably means is that he makes either makes too many outs on the basepaths by being too aggressive, or he leaves too many runs out there by not being aggressive enough. There's more to it than just speed and stolen bases.

    If we're just supposed to defer to whatever management does, then it doesn't seem like there's much sense to having this website, now does there?

    There's 0 reason to keep Wise over Dickerson. Dickerson is better in every facet of the game of baseball. Even if your argument is that it doesn't matter because the guy isn't getting that much PT, wouldn't it be better if a better player got those reps instead?
    The baserunning metric you're referring to is an aggregate number. Wise is being penalized because he's been in the league longer. Dickerson hasn't had the chance to mess up as often - yet.
    It's obviously important to you that the 25th guy on the roster be awesome.
    To me - again - if he's doing the job, I'm worrying about more important things like getting more power at bats out of Alex. Or, getting Martin on the hitting track....
    The impact of these players is so low, it's not even a blip on my radar.
    Dewayne Wise has not done anything Chris Dickerson could do to win any games this season.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  17. #17

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Phelps going down to Tampa to be stretched out as a starting pitcher then back to SWB when ready.
    Please fire Cashman, so some Yankee fans can have hope again.

  18. #18

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    probably the best move, but, ngl, I had my fingers crossed for Garcia getting the axe.

  19. #19

    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    The baserunning metric you're referring to is an aggregate number. Wise is being penalized because he's been in the league longer. Dickerson hasn't had the chance to mess up as often - yet.
    It's obviously important to you that the 25th guy on the roster be awesome.
    To me - again - if he's doing the job, I'm worrying about more important things like getting more power at bats out of Alex. Or, getting Martin on the hitting track....
    The impact of these players is so low, it's not even a blip on my radar.
    Dewayne Wise has not done anything Chris Dickerson could do to win any games this season.
    Yes, it is an aggregate number, but it shows Wise to be below-average and Dickerson to be above-average. Wise's negative impact would be less if he'd been in the league for less time, but that doesn't change the fact that Dickerson has provided value with his baserunning while Wise has taken value away.

    It's not about being awesome. Dickerson isn't awesome. But there's no reason to carry a terrible player like Wise when you've got a player like Dickerson in the minors.

  20. #20
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    When he's been up before, I believe they've only used him in LF/RF ... if he can play CF too, why not. But it's not like Wise is costing this team games.
    Dickerson can play CF. He's not as good defensively as wise and he's not quite as good a base stealer but his offensive is much better and the drop off on D isn't that large.

    I don't think it is a big issue but if they can improve at no real cost, I don't see why they don't do it.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  21. #21
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Yes, it is an aggregate number, but it shows Wise to be below-average and Dickerson to be above-average. Wise's negative impact would be less if he'd been in the league for less time, but that doesn't change the fact that Dickerson has provided value with his baserunning while Wise has taken value away.

    It's not about being awesome. Dickerson isn't awesome. But there's no reason to carry a terrible player like Wise when you've got a player like Dickerson in the minors.
    Dickerson had a good season when he was 26, when he batted a career high 122 times.
    That was 4 years ago.
    Since then, he's pretty much been..... Dewayne Wise.
    Dickerson will not provide anymore value than that of Wise.
    Dickerson's numbers might be a bit better than Wise's but the samples are way, way small to make any determinations of either's stardom.
    (Wise's WAR has been better for the last three seasons)
    Wise is basically being used as a defensive replacement. He has not missed any defensive plays (that I can remember) that Dickerson would have made to save any games.
    Neither player is, or would, get any significant playing time because they are both not very good.
    So while you believe that Dickerson is going to magically make the Yankees a better team, I say it doesn't make a lick of difference who they are using as a late inning defensive replacement in the outfield for Ibanez. They could be using Willie Mays in that role and none of the games would have had a different outcome.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  22. #22
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    Dickerson had a good season when he was 26, when he batted a career high 122 times.
    That was 4 years ago.
    Since then, he's pretty much been..... Dewayne Wise.
    Dickerson will not provide anymore value than that of Wise.
    Dickerson's numbers might be a bit better than Wise's but the samples are way, way small to make any determinations of either's stardom.
    (Wise's WAR has been better for the last three seasons)
    Wise is basically being used as a defensive replacement. He has not missed any defensive plays (that I can remember) that Dickerson would have made to save any games.
    Neither player is, or would, get any significant playing time because they are both not very good.
    So while you believe that Dickerson is going to magically make the Yankees a better team, I say it doesn't make a lick of difference who they are using as a late inning defensive replacement in the outfield for Ibanez. They could be using Willie Mays in that role and none of the games would have had a different outcome.
    It would make a difference in the sense that you could start Dickerson more often than Wise. Yes, Wise has had some nice success with the bat this season, but nothing in his career numbers makes me confident that he is likely to keep it up. While Dickerson is not awesome, he is a solid player and much better at the plate than Wise. Starting him every now and then would give the old man who is roaming our left field right now some much needed time as a DH or even some time off. Ibanez is already showing signs of decline, no need to accelerate it by playing him in left almost every day.

  23. #23
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    This again?
    Chris Dickerson is not better than Dewayne Wise.
    If he were better, he'd be on the ML roster, I'm sure.

    Anyway - is Dickerson even playing this year? (only 33 games at SWB)
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  24. #24
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    This again?
    Chris Dickerson is not better than Dewayne Wise.
    If he were better, he'd be on the ML roster, I'm sure.

    Anyway - is Dickerson even playing this year? (only 33 games at SWB)

    I am not sure what your analysis of him not being better than Wise is based on... anyway, he is playing. He's been on the DL from mid April until mid June but is back by now. If he hadn't been on the DL when Gardner got hurt, he would have gotten the call instead of Wise.

  25. #25
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    Re: Should the Yankees Carry Only 11 Pitchers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelbug83 View Post
    I am not sure what your analysis of him not being better than Wise is based on... anyway, he is playing. He's been on the DL from mid April until mid June but is back by now. If he hadn't been on the DL when Gardner got hurt, he would have gotten the call instead of Wise.
    Not so sure about that considering Wise's wRC+ (for AAA) was 178 and Dickerson's was 115.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

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