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  1. #1676
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    I'm sure that he could have. We don't know what the prices were for realistic pitchers that could have been acquired.
    Come on... don't you know that teams should be GIVING the Yankees their front-of-the-rotation pitchers for a couple of "c" rated prospects?
    Get with the program.....

    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  2. #1677
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by jnewmark View Post
    I'm glad somebody finally said this. It seemed like just about every team in contention got some kind of pitching help except the Yankees. Pitching, pitching, and more pitching. Once you get past CC, it's a crap shoot.
    This is just not true. Kuroda has been pitching very well.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  3. #1678

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    This is just not true. Kuroda has been pitching very well.
    Sorry, around here, "#2 pitcher" means "top-5 in all of baseball."

  4. #1679
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Sorry, around here, "#2 pitcher" means "top-5 in all of baseball."
    CC is a good #2, he's just not a true ace because at this moment he's not as good as Verlander or Weaver.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  5. #1680

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    CC is a good #2, he's just not a true ace because at this moment he's not as good as Verlander or Weaver.
    CC always does seem to be over-matched in the playoffs relative to the opposing starter.

    He couldn't shut down the opposition the way Lee was able to shut us down in the 2009 WS, and again in the ALCS in 2010. He was outperformed by Verlander in the 2011 ALDS, but so was everyone else in the known universe.

    Its hard to fully blame him though, because the offense has to meet him half way. You have to plan for him to give up 2 or less over 6 innings as a minimum. Other teams are getting at least that from their aces in the playoffs. Thats kind of the notion that pushes him to #1a or even #2 status.
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  6. #1681
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Kuroda is pitching like a #2, maybe even a #1.
    like a boss

    4.0 WAR is 6th in AL
    143.2 IP is 8th in AL
    3.19 ERA is 9th in AL
    1.18 WHIP is 9th in AL

    Really can't ask much more from your presumptive #2.

    Oh and all of those numbers are better than CCs at this point of the season.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #1682

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Example?
    well, it wasn't demps or greinke for damn sure. garza would have been nice, but they were asking too much. same with johnson. the guy i've really wanted to be on this team is felix, but seattle isn't budging on him. and not to cry over spilt milk, yu darvish would have been awesome here. so to answer your question finally. i don't know.

  8. #1683
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachtsurfing View Post
    well, it wasn't demps or greinke for damn sure. garza would have been nice, but they were asking too much. same with johnson. the guy i've really wanted to be on this team is felix, but seattle isn't budging on him. and not to cry over spilt milk, yu darvish would have been awesome here. so to answer your question finally. i don't know.
    Darvish.
    League average pitching for $100 million.
    Awesome? Not exactly.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  9. #1684

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachtsurfing View Post
    well, it wasn't demps or greinke for damn sure. garza would have been nice, but they were asking too much. same with johnson. the guy i've really wanted to be on this team is felix, but seattle isn't budging on him. and not to cry over spilt milk, yu darvish would have been awesome here. so to answer your question finally. i don't know.
    Yu Darvish seems to be going for that 1:1:1 ratio of K:BB:ER. Not necessarily a bad thing if you keep that last one at a minimum, but it looks like he's trying to get Nolan Ryan's career total while maintaining that ratio. I wanted him in pinstripes pretty badly. Not so much right now...
    Mariano Rivera was so great he was able to close a Denny's.

  10. #1685

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachtsurfing View Post
    well, it wasn't demps or greinke for damn sure. garza would have been nice, but they were asking too much. same with johnson. the guy i've really wanted to be on this team is felix, but seattle isn't budging on him. and not to cry over spilt milk, yu darvish would have been awesome here. so to answer your question finally. i don't know.
    Yeah, that's what I'm getting at - it's not as easy as it seems.

    I'm glad we didn't spend on Darvish. Didn't mind passing on him at the time, feel even better now.
    Team Northern Lights

  11. #1686

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Example?
    Dempster is a solid pitcher who would have provided the Yankees quality starts. Given what Texas gave up for him, I have to think the Yankees could have exceeded that package and not mortgaged the farm. Everything starts and ends with pitching, and the Yankees simply do not have anything reliable after CC and Kuroda. Nova and Hughes tease with high-end starts but are massively inconsistent and liable to implode completely. Garcia is Garcia. And leaving your team's fortunes to a 40 year-old pitcher who came out of retirement to pitch this season and will be coming back from a serious injury which caused extended time to be lost is a tremendously risky proposition. He has already had a setback and there is no guarantee he will be able to pitch at the front-end, which is what the team needs, given that it has plenty of back-end mediocrity.

    The Yankees in 2012 have shown tremendous resolve and heart, and have overcome a massive number of injuries to key players. With Boston getting healthier, and ARod going down, eventually there will be one too many factors to overcome. There were seasons in the 2000s where the team frankly didn't play well enough in the first half to justify the expenditure for mid-season help. If ever there were a team that deserved it, this year's version is that team. Cashman whiffed. Plain and simple.

  12. #1687

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by coachtsurfing View Post
    if we don't get a number 2 pitcher, our season is going down the toilet like a big old number 2.
    So not going down at all?


  13. #1688
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    Dempster is a solid pitcher who would have provided the Yankees quality starts. Given what Texas gave up for him, I have to think the Yankees could have exceeded that package and not mortgaged the farm. Everything starts and ends with pitching, and the Yankees simply do not have anything reliable after CC and Kuroda. Nova and Hughes tease with high-end starts but are massively inconsistent and liable to implode completely. Garcia is Garcia. And leaving your team's fortunes to a 40 year-old pitcher who came out of retirement to pitch this season and will be coming back from a serious injury which caused extended time to be lost is a tremendously risky proposition. He has already had a setback and there is no guarantee he will be able to pitch at the front-end, which is what the team needs, given that it has plenty of back-end mediocrity.
    How do we know that the Cubs didn't ask for Cano in exchange for Dempster?
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  14. #1689

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    So not going down at all?
    Depends on how big and the level of fiber in the diet.

  15. #1690

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    How do we know that the Cubs didn't ask for Cano in exchange for Dempster?
    I suppose we theoretically don't, but, using that logic, why wouldn't they ask the Rangers for Kinsler or Hamilton? I can't see any reason why they would want to help the Rangers out particularly and screw the Yankees over. They traded him to Texas because that obviously was the best deal they were offered. We could have offered a better package.

    BTW, the Cubs in reality wouldn't have asked for any of the above players due to salary/impending FA issues.

  16. #1691

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    Dempster is a solid pitcher who would have provided the Yankees quality starts. Given what Texas gave up for him, I have to think the Yankees could have exceeded that package and not mortgaged the farm. Everything starts and ends with pitching, and the Yankees simply do not have anything reliable after CC and Kuroda. Nova and Hughes tease with high-end starts but are massively inconsistent and liable to implode completely. Garcia is Garcia. And leaving your team's fortunes to a 40 year-old pitcher who came out of retirement to pitch this season and will be coming back from a serious injury which caused extended time to be lost is a tremendously risky proposition. He has already had a setback and there is no guarantee he will be able to pitch at the front-end, which is what the team needs, given that it has plenty of back-end mediocrity.

    The Yankees in 2012 have shown tremendous resolve and heart, and have overcome a massive number of injuries to key players. With Boston getting healthier, and ARod going down, eventually there will be one too many factors to overcome. There were seasons in the 2000s where the team frankly didn't play well enough in the first half to justify the expenditure for mid-season help. If ever there were a team that deserved it, this year's version is that team. Cashman whiffed. Plain and simple.
    After their top two guys, neither does anyone else.
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  17. #1692
    NYYF Triple Crown


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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    The Yankees in 2012 have shown tremendous resolve and heart, and have overcome a massive number of injuries to key players. With Boston getting healthier, and ARod going down, eventually there will be one too many factors to overcome. There were seasons in the 2000s where the team frankly didn't play well enough in the first half to justify the expenditure for mid-season help. If ever there were a team that deserved it, this year's version is that team. Cashman whiffed. Plain and simple.
    This year's team has exceeded my expectations considering all the key players they lost. I never thought they were going to recover from the Mo injury but Soriano surprised us with his performance. Gardner's injury is another one that they somehow managed to overcome.

    I am not that worried about Boston. They have as many problems as the Yankees if not more. I am not sure what Cashman could've done given the budget restraint placed on him by the Steinbrenners. Once we get Andy back, our pitching will be passable.

    If NYY wins it all this year, it would be very satisfying.

  18. #1693
    Hello dum-dum... effdamets's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    I suppose we theoretically don't, but, using that logic, why wouldn't they ask the Rangers for Kinsler or Hamilton? I can't see any reason why they would want to help the Rangers out particularly and screw the Yankees over. They traded him to Texas because that obviously was the best deal they were offered. We could have offered a better package.

    BTW, the Cubs in reality wouldn't have asked for any of the above players due to salary/impending FA issues.
    Well - I have this theory that when GMs deal with the Yankees, they ask for the moon. When that same GM deals with another team, they only ask for space dust particles.

    I used Cano as an example. Maybe the Cubs (Theo by the way - speaking of wanting to screw the Yankees) were offered the top Yankee minor league prospect and the Cubs said no.
    “Begin each day as if it were on purpose........”—Alex Hitchens

  19. #1694
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne View Post
    CC always does seem to be over-matched in the playoffs relative to the opposing starter.

    He couldn't shut down the opposition the way Lee was able to shut us down in the 2009 WS, and again in the ALCS in 2010. He was outperformed by Verlander in the 2011 ALDS, but so was everyone else in the known universe.

    Its hard to fully blame him though, because the offense has to meet him half way. You have to plan for him to give up 2 or less over 6 innings as a minimum. Other teams are getting at least that from their aces in the playoffs. Thats kind of the notion that pushes him to #1a or even #2 status.
    He looked pretty dominant in game 1 before the rain flushed it away. He's always been a guy who gives up too many hits (nearly a hit per inning for his career).

  20. #1695

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    After their top two guys, neither does anyone else.
    The Angels say hi.

  21. #1696

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    The Angels say hi.
    ERA+ says what?
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  22. #1697

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    ERA+ says what?
    You seriously think CC-Kuroda-Pettitte (MAYBE)-Hughes/Nova really is a good matchup against Weaver-Wilson-Greinke-Haren in a playoff series?

  23. #1698

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by effdamets View Post
    How do we know that the Cubs didn't ask for Cano in exchange for Dempster?
    That's why I asked for both sides of the equation. Who for who (whom?) It's easy to say "I wish we'd acquire a decent pitcher" without offering specifics.

    For example, I would have offered almost any minor leaguer, nova, etc for Greinke.

    Also, I'm not sold on Dempster in YS.
    Team Northern Lights

  24. #1699

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by bomber999 View Post
    You seriously think CC-Kuroda-Pettitte (MAYBE)-Hughes/Nova really is a good matchup against Weaver-Wilson-Greinke-Haren in a playoff series?
    What I said, and what you responded to, was that every team has inconsistent 3-4-5 guys.

    Now to answer your new question, yes-- the Yankees pitching has been as good or better than the Angels. I know this is difficult to believe because from what I read around here the 2012 Yankees are the crappiest team to ever crap a crap.

    ERA+

    CC- 121
    Kuroda- 133
    Pettitte- 133
    Nova- 88
    Hughes- 104

    Weaver- 175
    Wilson- 111
    Grienke- 115 (74 as an Angel)
    Haren- 84
    27 World Championships
    40 AL Pennants
    Liberated France Twice

  25. #1700

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    What I said, and what you responded to, was that every team has inconsistent 3-4-5 guys.

    Now to answer your new question, yes-- the Yankees pitching has been as good or better than the Angels. I know this is difficult to believe because from what I read around here the 2012 Yankees are the crappiest team to ever crap a crap.

    ERA+

    CC- 121
    Kuroda- 133
    Pettitte- 133
    Nova- 88
    Hughes- 104

    Weaver- 175
    Wilson- 111
    Grienke- 115 (74 as an Angel)
    Haren- 84
    So Weaver is better than CC by a good margin. Kuroda has been rock solid, no doubt. Pettitte's numbers are at least somewhat reflective of SSS due to his delayed start and the injury, and this assumes he makes it back from a serious injury to pitch at the same level as before- no small feat for a 40 year-old a year removed from retirement. I'm sorry, but I would take Greinke and Haren over Hughes and Nova in a heartbeat.

    The numbers do reflect that the Yankees' pitching is not nearly as bad as some think. Point taken. If Pettitte is able to return strong, it definitely changes the complexion of a post-season rotation, I agree. But, in a series, I still think the LAAAAAA have a deeper rotation.

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