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  1. #426
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    You can't prove that mental issues had anything to do with any player ever. But it does affect you. Players are not robots.

    Is there a player that you can prove had mental issues with data?
    Do you remember Jimmie Piersal from the 1950's?

    Andy
    Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.

  2. #427

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Steve Trout and Ed Whitson

  3. #428
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Do you remember Jimmie Piersal from the 1950's?

    Andy
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat2390 View Post
    Steve Trout and Ed Whitson
    You can't prove they had mental issues with their stats. We know Jimmie Piersall had mental issues because it's documented. We know Ed Whitson hated playing in NY and for Billy Martin because he said so repeatedly, and he got into a fight with his manager. Trout, I don't know if he had mental issues or just sucked.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  4. #429
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    Do you remember Jimmie Piersal from the 1950's?

    Andy
    Andy I'm getting up there but my dad wasn't even alive until 2 years later.

    Either way a player with mental issues can be noted, but you can you prove it affects their stats? That's the question.
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  5. #430
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    So is it something about the Yankees procedures or coaching that is an issue or is it just a coincidence that the two times he was here something was wrong?
    Coincidence. Vazquez was actually pretty good with the Yankees in 2004 prior to the All Star Break? Why didn't the "pressure" or "mental issues" affect him for his first 18 starts in New York?
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  6. #431
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Coincidence. Vazquez was actually pretty good with the Yankees in 2004 prior to the All Star Break? Why didn't the "pressure" or "mental issues" affect him for his first 18 starts in New York?
    Yeah I remember him being good them falling off. I obviously don;t have the answer. I just don't buy that it was one thing and one thing alone is all.
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  7. #432
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    No the ridiculous part is I can't have a little fun without running into someone like you who wants to be alpha poster and show your awesome knowledge about baseball. I have an opinion about something, right or wrong I don't really care. You can disagree all you want but there's really no reason for you or Mr Charles to be so god damn rude about it. I come here to have fun and shoot the sh!t and I really find no pleasure in these petty little arguments. So spout off your awesome knowledge and prove what an expert you are.

    If you knew me at all, and you weren't be such an ass, you may even get me to see another side of the argument. That is not all I do. I'm a very reasonable person until I see crap like this. It's really just unnecessary but people seem to get off on it.
    Sorry if I came off as a bit abrasive. I'm not trying to be an internet tough guy or prove how expert I am, I just don't like it when people try and jump into arguments without having evidence to back up their claims. I'm sure you're a swell guy and just trying to have fun but this is a discussion forum, so if you make a claim be prepared for people to attack you.

  8. #433
    Bazinga Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Sorry if I came off as a bit abrasive. I'm not trying to be an internet tough guy or prove how expert I am, I just don't like it when people try and jump into arguments without having evidence to back up their claims. I'm sure you're a swell guy and just trying to have fun but this is a discussion forum, so if you make a claim be prepared for people to attack you.
    I appreciate that. I didn't mean to pop off on you either but when I see people getting all alpha poster on me for what I believe seems like no reason I tend to react instead of letting it die.

    Anyway, the funny part is in the chain of events I actually started the argument/discussion by even bringing up Vazquez. My initial concern was Greinke. I know for a fact it is legitimate and documented that in the previous discussions on possibly getting him there were concerns about his psychological issues. Now whether or not this is still a factor remains to be seen. He could have been properly medicated, sought out an effective therapy or just plain gotten over it but it's not something I can just forget. He pitches in Milwaukee now and while I realize it's the major league stage it's still a small market with an easy media and fans with a mediocre amount of expectations on their team. As for pitching here there are things a player is expected to deal with. is he a great pitcher? Absolutely. In a perfect world I would love for him to be in the Yankee rotation. But I had a concern about his previous issues.

    As for Vazquez, maybe I was talking out of my ass or cherry picking seasons but I only know what I saw and how much fantasy impact he had over the course of his first time here and now. I saw the highs and the lows and we got most of the lows. I could have researched before I said anything, but I made the comment in passing which was my bad.
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  9. #434
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Every time I see the title of this thread, I get irritated. The hot stove is the off-season rumor mill. It's what happens in the wintertime, when the baseball-less are chilled to the bone and want to gather around, well, a hot stove.

    If we're talking trade rumors in midsummer, couldn't the thread please be titled "2012 Cool Air Conditioner/Trade Rumors"?

    Thoughts of a hot stove on a day like today ...

  10. #435

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    I lurk this forum a lot and for a long long time. I however feel the need to say this. I am absolutely blown away that I just had to skip over pages of Vazquez discussion. Every day I come online to check out this thread, it is people arguing over Vazquez. Why in the world is anyone talking about Vazquez in 2012?


    And to make the situation (a lot) funnier, you all are arguing over mental conditions and how Vazquez is somehow a predictor of how Greinke would pitch in New York as if that makes the least bit sense. Not only does no one know how pitching in NY would influence the performance of Greinke, but bringing up Vazquez as evidence is hilarious.


    Vazquez = Irrelevance to anything. Especially a Trade Rumor thread, and especially to anything about Greinke.


    /end discussion, done like dinner

  11. #436
    Member
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Just saw that Thome was dealt to the Orioles. Not unexpected.

  12. #437
    NYYF Triple Crown


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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by crossfire View Post
    Just saw that Thome was dealt to the Orioles. Not unexpected.
    I wonder if that's a sign that Phillies will be selling.

  13. #438
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Numark View Post
    I lurk this forum a lot and for a long long time. I however feel the need to say this. I am absolutely blown away that I just had to skip over pages of Vazquez discussion. Every day I come online to check out this thread, it is people arguing over Vazquez. Why in the world is anyone talking about Vazquez in 2012?


    And to make the situation (a lot) funnier, you all are arguing over mental conditions and how Vazquez is somehow a predictor of how Greinke would pitch in New York as if that makes the least bit sense. Not only does no one know how pitching in NY would influence the performance of Greinke, but bringing up Vazquez as evidence is hilarious.


    Vazquez = Irrelevance to anything. Especially a Trade Rumor thread, and especially to anything about Greinke.


    /end discussion, done like dinner
    I'm absolutely blown away that people are still surprised that threads on an internet message board tend to go off topic.

  14. #439

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    I'd love hamels, but not as a rental. give me garza

  15. #440

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    I like Garza. Shawn Marcum would've been great, but he's injured.
    Ain't it EVIL to LIVE backwards

  16. #441
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARodCanoMelky View Post
    how about Shawn Marcum ?
    My dread of all the inevitable puns makes me want to say no

  17. #442
    Legend DJ27's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    I am ready to deal our "top prospects" (the killer B's) whom we often overvalue for someone proven. Hamels in particular!
    Speak softly but carry a big stick.

  18. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ27 View Post
    I am ready to deal our "top prospects" (the killer B's) whom we often overvalue for someone proven. Hamels in particular!
    Tell me what you know about Banuelos.

  19. #444
    Legend DJ27's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Tell me what you know about Banuelos.
    A lot of Manny being the next Pettitte but then getting injured.................................
    Speak softly but carry a big stick.

  20. #445
    Legend DJ27's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Tell me what you know about Banuelos.
    And someone I wanted to be the MAN............... but if he is the centerpiece in getting someone like Hamels...... ok.
    Speak softly but carry a big stick.

  21. #446

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jax Teller View Post
    Tell me what you know about Banuelos.
    I'm somewhat concerned with the number of injuries he's had. That combined with his size make me wonder if he can handle the rigors of a full ML season. I know the Yankees tend to be overly cautious but I feel like the current DL stint is unusually long for a "tired arm" and wonder if there may be more to it. The development time he's going to miss this year is substantial. I doubt he reaches 100 innings. His peripherals as he's moved through the system have not exactly moved in the right direction. His BB/9 has gone up while his K rate has gone down. Yes, they were both showing signs of improvement this year but he only pitched 24 innings so there are sss issues to consider before drawing any conclusions from them. Tons of potential and still very young but legit concerns and if we can get a young, established ace such as Hamels by using him as a key piece of the package I'm on board provided it's not a rental.

  22. #447

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I'm somewhat concerned with the number of injuries he's had. That combined with his size make me wonder if he can handle the rigors of a full ML season. I know the Yankees tend to be overly cautious but I feel like the current DL stint is unusually long for a "tired arm" and wonder if there may be more to it. The development time he's going to miss this year is substantial. I doubt he reaches 100 innings. His peripherals as he's moved through the system have not exactly moved in the right direction. His BB/9 has gone up while his K rate has gone down. Yes, they were both showing signs of improvement this year but he only pitched 24 innings so there are sss issues to consider before drawing any conclusions from them. Tons of potential and still very young but legit concerns and if we can get a young, established ace such as Hamels by using him as a key piece of the package I'm on board provided it's not a rental.
    Yea, I agree he has a lot more question marks than some of us would like to believe. None of his injuries are particularly serious, but they have prevented him from getting the innings he needs to build more arm strength. Also statistically he's been walking too many, he's been giving up too many hits (more than 1 per inning since the start of 2011) and strikeouts have gone down. I do agree that there is still a lot of potential and as a lefty with a low-mid 90's fastball and plus changeup he does fit the profile of many other successful ML left handed starters.

  23. #448

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    The Phillies have begun calling teams about potential interest in Cole Hamels, according to Heyman.

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/0...le-hamels.html

    I would empty the farm system for him. But even if the Yankees offer everything they can, I have to think other teams could put together more attractive packages. We'll see how it goes.

  24. #449

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Ideally I hope we get Hamels.

    But realistically, I am hoping someone dumps the farm on Hamels and then we get Greinke.

  25. #450
    NYYF Triple Crown

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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    CC, Hamels, Kuroda, Pettitte, Hughes/Nova for a WS push...

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY
    Mo bends. Mo don't break.

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