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  1. #326
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Not so sure about that. There was a reason he wasn't an option when he was a FA and he went where he did. He may have problems pitching in NY like Burnett and Vazquez.
    Greinke has never been an FA in his career. He is due to become one this offseason.

  2. #327
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Greinke has never been an FA in his career. He is due to become one this offseason.
    My bad. Then I guess he was traded or whatever. Either way, I don't think he'll ever come here. And if he does he admittedly cannot handle the mental aspect of it. From what I remember anyway. Didn't he have massive anxiety issues?

    I really thought he was a FA when he went to the Brewers. Are you sure? Was he traded? I don't recall.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  3. #328
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Okay, nm.... I see he was traded for Cain and Oderizzi and a few other prospects.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  4. #329
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Not so sure about that. There was a reason he wasn't an option when he was a FA and he went where he did. He may have problems pitching in NY like Burnett and Vazquez.
    Burnett and Vazquez had problems pitching in New York because their stuff disappeared, not because of some bizarre psychological phenomenon. Besides, Greinke was traded to the Brewers so he really didn't have a choice to come here in the first place.

  5. #330
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Burnett and Vazquez had problems pitching in New York because their stuff disappeared, not because of some bizarre psychological phenomenon. Besides, Greinke was traded to the Brewers so he really didn't have a choice to come here in the first place.
    If you want to cite a pitcher who couldn't handle New York, cite Ed Whitson.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  6. #331
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Burnett and Vazquez had problems pitching in New York because their stuff disappeared, not because of some bizarre psychological phenomenon. Besides, Greinke was traded to the Brewers so he really didn't have a choice to come here in the first place.
    I was just using failures in NY as examples. I realize the circumstances are different. However there was talk about him not being able to come here so I don't think the Yankees were interested then and probably aren't now unless something has changed.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  7. #332
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If you want to cite a pitcher who couldn't handle New York, cite Ed Whitson.
    I think I cited two pitchers that work just fine. You can say it was a stuff thing but Vazquez tried twice, coming after productive seasons. If nothing else he could not handle it here. Burnett is just weird.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  8. #333
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I think I cited two pitchers that work just fine. You can say it was a stuff thing but Vazquez tried twice, coming after productive seasons. If nothing else he could not handle it here. Burnett is just weird.
    It had absolutely nothing to do with New York and everything to do with his stuff declining. These guys are professional athletes, not little children. Quit playing armchair psychologist. I refuse to believe that Greinke will have a nervous breakdown and be unable to pitch as soon as he sets foot in the Bronx unless it actually happens.

  9. #334
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I was just using failures in NY as examples. I realize the circumstances are different. However there was talk about him not being able to come here so I don't think the Yankees were interested then and probably aren't now unless something has changed.
    We were VERY interested then and I'm sure still are now. The only real question is whether we have enough in the way of prospects to land him.

  10. #335
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    It had absolutely nothing to do with New York and everything to do with his stuff declining. These guys are professional athletes, not little children. Quit playing armchair psychologist. I refuse to believe that Greinke will have a nervous breakdown and be unable to pitch as soon as he sets foot in the Bronx unless it actually happens.
    So you think that when Vazquez left he just found it again the first time? What about Burnett now. Did he miraculously find his stuff again? It just didn't work here? Have anything to do with maybe pitching for a team that it doesn't matter if they lose or not?

    Oh and by the way, don't tell me what to do. Seems like you're just looking to argue. I never said Grienke would have a nervous breakdown. But I know for a fact he had anxiety issues and he wasn't ever going to come here. If something has changed, maybe it will happen. I can't predict the future but I know what happened in the past.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  11. #336
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Oh and by the way, don't tell me what to do. Seems like you're just looking to argue.
    Now why would I do that? I just don't like the idea of dismissing a guy with a FIP of 2.05 out of hand because he might not thrive in New York if he gets traded here.

  12. #337
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    Now why would I do that? I just don't like the idea of dismissing a guy with a FIP of 2.05 out of hand because he might not thrive in New York if he gets traded here.
    Because I mentioned a fact, Grienke has anxiety issues and him coming here was a huge concern. You blew that up as if I think he'll have some sort of episode on the field, which I don't believe and never said. I cited two players that obviously couldn't handle it here as reasons to think some people just can't do it. You can call it a decline in whatever but the proof is there. Vazquez came here and sucked, he left and was the guy he was again. Burnett came here and was completely erratic, left for a no pressure situation and somehow found his stuff again. I'm sorry I don't buy that it was just some loss in velocity or declining skills. Both examples prove that some people just can't cut it yet you're dismissing it and calling me an armchair psychologist. I'm not evaluating them and trying to predict the future. I'm citing facts. I don't know why this is being dismissed. They are facts. These things happened. You can witness it with Burnett's current season.
    Boo for trading Prado.

  13. #338
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Because I mentioned a fact, Grienke has anxiety issues and him coming here was a huge concern. You blew that up as if I think he'll have some sort of episode on the field, which I don't believe and never said. I cited two players that obviously couldn't handle it here as reasons to think some people just can't do it. You can call it a decline in whatever but the proof is there. Vazquez came here and sucked, he left and was the guy he was again. Burnett came here and was completely erratic, left for a no pressure situation and somehow found his stuff again. I'm sorry I don't buy that it was just some loss in velocity or declining skills. Both examples prove that some people just can't cut it yet you're dismissing it and calling me an armchair psychologist. I'm not evaluating them and trying to predict the future. I'm citing facts. I don't know why this is being dismissed. They are facts. These things happened. You can witness it with Burnett's current season.
    So the fact that a couple pitchers might have been adversely affected by the atmosphere in New York means that we shouldn't go after Greinke? Every team has guys who are good before they're acquired, such with the team that acquires them, and then get better when they leave. Do the failures of Beltre, Figgins, and Bedard in Seattle prove that some guys can't handle the city? Sometimes deals just don't work out and I don't see any evidence to suggest that there's anything special about New York that caused them to underperform.

  14. #339

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Why did it take half a season for NY pressure to get to Vazquez? Or an entire season for it to get to Burnett? If Burnett had a problem with NY pressure, would he have come up like he did in the WS? Seems doubtful.

    In Vazquez' case, his mechanics went to hell in 2004 and we didn't actually employ a pitching coach who coached any of the pitchers, so it got worse and worse until he couldn't get anybody out. Last year, his fastball velocity was in the 80s for most of the year. Was he too scared by NYC to throw harder?

    Ed Whitson didn't stink because of NYC; he stunk because he wasn't a good pitcher. It took him until his age 34-35 seasons (when he finally learned to throw strikes consistently) to have consecutive above-average seasons. The season before he became a Yankee, he was pretty good. The season before that, he was awful.

  15. #340

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blazer View Post
    The price is set by supply and demand. The demand for an accomplished AL East pitcher rose substantially in the last 12 hours.
    This may be correct, but it has nothing to do with what the Yankees would have to pay. Andy's injury probably increases what they would be willing to pay, but what they would have to pay is based on what other teams would be willing to pay and thus what the Yankees would have to outbid.

    But I agree that a team with a pitcher to sell might bargain harder with the Yankees to try to capture more of what economists call the "surplus" between what they would be willing to sell for and the Yankees would be willing to pay. In other words, the Yankees might end up paying more because they do not know everything about the market and the selling team effectively bluffs in negotiations.

  16. #341
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Why did it take half a season for NY pressure to get to Vazquez? Or an entire season for it to get to Burnett? If Burnett had a problem with NY pressure, would he have come up like he did in the WS? Seems doubtful.

    In Vazquez' case, his mechanics went to hell in 2004 and we didn't actually employ a pitching coach who coached any of the pitchers, so it got worse and worse until he couldn't get anybody out. Last year, his fastball velocity was in the 80s for most of the year. Was he too scared by NYC to throw harder?

    Ed Whitson didn't stink because of NYC; he stunk because he wasn't a good pitcher. It took him until his age 34-35 seasons (when he finally learned to throw strikes consistently) to have consecutive above-average seasons. The season before he became a Yankee, he was pretty good. The season before that, he was awful.
    Couldn't agree more on Vazquez, Burnett, and Whitson, however Grienke actually has a clinical condition that could be exacerbated by the constant scrutiny he would be under in New York. With that said, I'd be all for taking a shot on him if he becomes available.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  17. #342

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    I don't see the Yankees making a trade for a pitcher like Greinke unless something else happens to the rotation. The trade price would be too high for Cashman's taste, especially with so many teams bunched up and with the additional WC teams, the bidding will be very high.
    Poor ownership can hold a baseball team down for years!

  18. #343
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Couldn't agree more on Vazquez, Burnett, and Whitson, however Grienke actually has a clinical condition that could be exacerbated by the constant scrutiny he would be under in New York. With that said, I'd be all for taking a shot on him if he becomes available.
    Greinke does have a clinical condition, and he's been under treatment for it - with apparent success - since 2006. If his symptoms started to become more severe, he would now be able to recognize them more easily and his meds could be adjusted.
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  19. #344
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by d32123 View Post
    So the fact that a couple pitchers might have been adversely affected by the atmosphere in New York means that we shouldn't go after Greinke?
    I don't recall saying that at all, I was merely mentioning the fact that I remember there being issues with him the last time there was talk about him coming here and unless that has changed I don't see it. That is all. I never once said that he shouldn't be a target. Once again, are you just looking for a reason to argue? I'd really rather not. As other posters have mentioned above he does have a clinical condition. That's really all I was trying to say myself. We disagree on Burnett and Vazquez, but truce?
    Boo for trading Prado.

  20. #345

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I don't recall saying that at all, I was merely mentioning the fact that I remember there being issues with him the last time there was talk about him coming here and unless that has changed I don't see it. That is all. I never once said that he shouldn't be a target. Once again, are you just looking for a reason to argue? I'd really rather not. As other posters have mentioned above he does have a clinical condition. That's really all I was trying to say myself. We disagree on Burnett and Vazquez, but truce?
    Greinke wiped poop on a wall, right?

  21. #346

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    There was some talk before his trade to the Brewers that Greinke himself actually expressed interest in coming to New York. Heyman wrote an article last year that suggests he talked to Cashman about it during the previous Winter Meetings:

    He told friends he didn't think he could play in Boston or New York. But when he and Yankees general manager Brian Cashman met clandestinely in Orlando (Greinke's hometown) at an off-site location during the winter meetings, Greinke's desperation not to endure yet another losing season in Kansas City was such that he is said to have tried to convince Cashman that he wanted to come to New York. And that he could actually thrive in New York.
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ers/index.html

    There would definitely be some concerns to consider about potentially bringing Greinke to the Yankees, but I don't think the situation is as clear-cut as some make it out to be.

  22. #347
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Grienke, Hamels a few others I'm on board with the Yanks dealing prospects.
    Wandy, Garza, few others, not so much.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  23. #348

    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Grienke, Hamels a few others I'm on board with the Yanks dealing prospects.
    Wandy, Garza, few others, not so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Greinke does have a clinical condition, and he's been under treatment for it - with apparent success - since 2006. If his symptoms started to become more severe, he would now be able to recognize them more easily and his meds could be adjusted.
    Yup-yup.
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  24. #349
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by RenoHightower View Post
    Greinke wiped poop on a wall, right?
    what?
    Boo for trading Prado.

  25. #350
    let's go rangers! Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Hot Stove/ Trade Rumors...

    Quote Originally Posted by tim2nyy View Post
    There would definitely be some concerns to consider about potentially bringing Greinke to the Yankees, but I don't think the situation is as clear-cut as some make it out to be.
    This is kind of all I was presenting in this conversation. Using Burnett and Vazquez as examples was only to show that pressures in NY actually can exist. There is a certain expectation as a player on the Yankees you need to live up to. They pay people a lot of money and are expected to perform based on that. If you do not perform you have issues. Either from media, fans, or management. The media and fans were brutal to Vazquez and Burnett. Then they leave and go on to have great seasons. Burnett is having a fantastic season this year. To say that playing in NY has no affect on anyone is silly. Some people can deal with it right out of the gate, some people can't at all, and some people have to endure the pressures and if given the time they succeed. But it does have an impact. Am I wrong? This is something that has been talked about on this board since I signed up in 2002. All of a sudden it's not a factor? Come on.
    Boo for trading Prado.

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